Specifically, how does Jesus, himself, claim that he was different?
John 10:22-42
22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah, the Festival of Dedication. 23 He was in the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The people surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. 26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.[a] No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
31 Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. 32 Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?”
33 They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’[c] 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world. 37 Don’t believe me unless I carry out my Father’s work. 38 But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.”
39 Once again they tried to arrest him, but he got away and left them. 40 He went beyond the Jordan River near the place where John was first baptizing and stayed there a while. 41 And many followed him. “John didn’t perform miraculous signs,” they remarked to one another, “but everything he said about this man has come true.” 42 And many who were there believed in Jesus.
Regards,
MG
None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.
None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.
Hello, PseudoPaul,
I'm curious if you've had the chance to read Robin Lane Fox's book, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible. It's been some time since I read it myself. Mr. Fox is a historian, and while I don't believe he identifies as a Christian, if I recall correctly, he suggests that the Gospel of John is derived from primary source material. He posits that most other books in the Bible were likely written many years after the events they describe, by individuals other than those whose names are attached to them. However, certain elements of the Gospel of John seemingly resonated with him deeply, and he offers some intriguing insights into that particular book..
Only Mormons believe that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.
Originally called Modalism (An early church belief that was rejected around the 2nd century AD) now under different names like United Pentecostals, believe in "Oneness" - meaning that God is one person who shifts between three modes - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Just wanted to add that to the discussion.
Ah, thank you, Ceeboo! Good catch! I didn't know that modalism was still a thing outside of Mormonism. I appreciate you nudging me to look more at this.
This is proof of how much we need your voice, here.
That said, Mormonism approaches this a little differently. In LDS theology, God the Father and Jesus are two separate and distinct bone-and-flesh personages, who work together with other, unnamed deities.
Only Mormons believe that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.
I also thought this was true, until I heard my conservative Lutheran pastor at the time (a Missouri Synod guy) preach this very statement explicitly.
I was kind of a lurking heretic in that congregation. I was never really that kind of conservative Protestant. So I don't actually know whether this was only that guy's own conclusion or whether it's a standard Lutheran doctrine. I'm still in contact with some other Missouri Synod pastors, so I should ask.
Missouri Synod Lutheranism gives a lot of leeway to individual pastors up to a point, but it also does have firm boundaries. The fact that this one guy would say that from the pulpit doesn't necessarily mean that it's a firm piece of Lutheran belief, but it pretty much does mean that it can't be a weird notion that few other Lutherans would ever accept. It must be an acceptable Lutheran view.
I still think that it's a more common mainstream Christian view to say that the LORD of the Old Testament is either God the Father or else the whole Trinity vaguely perceived.
Originally called Modalism (An early church belief that was rejected around the 2nd century AD) now under different names like United Pentecostals, believe in "Oneness" - meaning that God is one person who shifts between three modes - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.
pseudoPaul, I am sure that you are aware that there is a variety of views about this and not simply a fundamentalist scholar's division. There are criteria used to distinguish sayings most likely or assuredly from Jesus and those less certain and then those more likely from later sources. Different people have used these and come up with different conclusions. Thinking back to a Jesus Seminar they voted and came up with results averaging the variety of views.
Clearly there is editing and as a result some alterations in the saying known to the authors. One might easily see more editorial voice in style in John but that leaves room for the underlying substance to have been from Jesus.
In general I find doubtful the image that Jesus was a figure of few words whose later followers invented many stories parables and saying which they found inspiring.
Only Mormons believe that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.
I also thought this was true, until I heard my conservative Lutheran pastor at the time (a Missouri Synod guy) preach this very statement explicitly.
I was kind of a lurking heretic in that congregation. I was never really that kind of conservative Protestant. So I don't actually know whether this was only that guy's own conclusion or whether it's a standard Lutheran doctrine. I'm still in contact with some other Missouri Synod pastors, so I should ask.
Missouri Synod Lutheranism gives a lot of leeway to individual pastors up to a point, but it also does have firm boundaries. The fact that this one guy would say that from the pulpit doesn't necessarily mean that it's a firm piece of Lutheran belief, but it pretty much does mean that it can't be a weird notion that few other Lutherans would ever accept. It must be an acceptable Lutheran view.
I still think that it's a more common mainstream Christian view to say that the LORD of the Old Testament is either God the Father or else the whole Trinity vaguely perceived.
Physics Guy, I have heard the sort of views you are referring to. I am not remembering sources because they were not making points I thought important. Seeing Jesus in Old Testament texts is enjoyed by some conservative Christian scholars.
Concerning the recent discussion - My view - nobody need agree:
One example: The biblical account surrounding the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis)
Yahweh visits Abraham.
Genesis 18:1
King James Version
18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.
Genesis 19:24
King James Version
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
The Lord (Yahweh) rains brimstone and fire from the Lord (Yahweh) out of heaven.
Lexicon: In all three locations where "Lord" is used above (once in Genesis 18:1 and both times in Genesis 19:24) the Hebrew word is Yahweh.
The same Yahweh that is visiting Abraham, is the Yahweh that travels to Sodom and Gomorra and destroys Sodom and Gomorra by the fire sent from Yahweh out of heaven.
I am sorry - but can you clarify whether the two sentences above represent your own view of the history of the ancient population of the British Isles?
Or is it it just the view of the 'Dr Kek' to whose X post you link?
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
