The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

[MG 2.0]

What do you think, MG 2.0? Where are you on all this?

Out working. I’m retired but go out into the schools and do substitute work periodically. Glutton for punishment.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Pretending that belief is a choice turns belief into a default virtue, as in "choosing God"--which is why MG beats his fingers bloody typing out about choosing to believe in a "creator God." As far as I know, the Christian scripture that the idea of "choosing belief in God" comes from actually says something subtly different.

"...as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Josh. 24:2, 15).

One serves by doing. The emphasis is on behavior.

Choosing God when one is living in a world where faith is the operative word in regard to religiosity, I look at that choice as being conditional. Choosing to believe because of one’s life experience and learning. And the feelings that go along with that. It’s a mixed bag sort of thing and one determines whether or not the pros outweigh the cons in choosing to believe. And those pros and cons can come in all shapes and sizes. Some folks are going to ‘buy’ it and buy in and others are not.

This doesn’t apply just to Mormonism, it applies to any faith tradition or system of belief, including agnosticism and/or atheism.

Belief in God is a conscious choice, in my opinion. There are some folks that say they’ve always believed in God from an early age. And sure, imprinting plays a part. At some time during one’s life, however, I think a deliberate choice is made whether or not to keep believing.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Pretending that belief is a choice turns belief into a default virtue, as in "choosing God"--which is why MG beats his fingers bloody typing out about choosing to believe in a "creator God." As far as I know, the Christian scripture that the idea of "choosing belief in God" comes from actually says something subtly different.

"...as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Josh. 24:2, 15).

One serves by doing. The emphasis is on behavior.

Choosing God when one is living in a world where faith is the operative word in regard to religiosity, I look at that choice as being conditional. Choosing to believe because of one’s life experience and learning. And the feelings that go along with that. It’s a mixed bag sort of thing and one determines whether or not the pros outweigh the cons in choosing to believe. And those pros and cons can come in all shapes and sizes. Some folks are going to ‘buy’ it and buy in and others are not.

This doesn’t apply just to Mormonism, it applies to any faith tradition or system of belief, including agnosticism and/or atheism.

Belief in God is a conscious choice, in my opinion. There are some folks that say they’ve always believed in God from an early age. And sure, imprinting plays a part. At some time during one’s life, however, I think a deliberate choice is made whether or not to keep believing.

Regards,
MG

I think you should clarify that with, "at some point some people pretend" to follow the actions that make other people think they believe in god. You can go through the motions of a believer but inside you can't change the core belief simply on choice.

[Marcus]

Oh dear, a truly troubling observation about this thread. I cannot see or find anything even vaguely like a rabbit. Do we live in multiple parallel worlds? Bits of this tread might sound like it.

Feed the back of the duck's head a carrot and pet the beak as if they were ears.



...


For what it's worth, I can never see this stuff either, Huck.

thank you, Morley. I wasn't seeing it either.

(nothin for nothin, but those are the sharpest ending rabbit ears I've ever seen. )

[Marcus]

Feed the back of the duck's head a carrot and pet the beak as if they were ears.



...


For what it's worth, I can never see this stuff either, Huck.

With the explanation I now have the unpleasant experience of seeing it. I will complain that for a rabbit the ears are wrong. They are one above the other instead of attached on either side of the skull. Despite that false manipulation I can now see a rabbit. ug.

I posted my complaint about the rabbit ears before reading yours. I am totally with you on that. Ug indeed!

[honorentheos]

You seem concerned that my “vacuous” comments and supportive links are going to somehow influence the opinions and thoughts of others and infect them with God belief, or at the very least cause them to doubt their doubts. If what I’m contributing or linking to is so obviously incompetent and lacking you should have little or no concern of this occurring.

We do agree that the responses are not concerning to me when it comes to influencing people. The motive above is something you are reading into the conversation. My frustration is with the lack of discussion. But don't worry. If coming here and posting the latest anti-science, anti-secular source you read dries up your brain and sends you to tilt against the windmill of discussion, well. One sees in your posts something familiar. "When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!"

[honorentheos]

It seems to me the question of belief overlaps the concept of Weltanschauung or worldview. That being the set of beliefs, attitudes, and overall framing approach one uses to contextualize ones lived experience. Because it isn't formed from new cloth but rather largely developed through cultural and social interaction, it represents more of a person's piece of a collective lived experience.

The very first sociology class I took in college left me incredibly curious and wanting more when the professor brought up this topic, discussing how incredibly plastic and stretchable our worldviews are, and how much energy we put in to protecting them. To have one's worldview disrupted is traumatic and I'd expect most people who left Mormonism of a certain age know exactly what that is like. Worldview protection is psychologically valuable, both for being a functional, social human being as well as for one's own mental health. There's diversity in how the subject is treated both by different disciplines of sociology, psychology, and philosophy as well as within each. Computer science deals with ontologies in a similar framing, and A.I. is an interesting approach to exploring what defines such. That's a rabbit hole one can easily get lost in as a topic for seeking understanding.

I don't choose what to believe, what makes up my current worldview. It's not the one I developed growing up, and the collapse of that worldview was certainly traumatic. Building a new one is an experience but no one chooses what they believe. What we do is develop or learn epistemological tools that affect how we approach new information that may challenge our worldview, and thereby cause us to largely defend it until and unless the force of the comprehensive experience(s) surrounding the challenge do actual damage to it.

[Morley]

Belief in God is a conscious choice, in my opinion. There are some folks that say they’ve always believed in God from an early age. And sure, imprinting plays a part. At some time during one’s life, however, I think a deliberate choice is made whether or not to keep believing.

Excellent. You have carefully chosen your god beliefs.

It's interesting to me how people brought up in certain communities often choose the god beliefs of the family and culture they were brought up in. People born in Shiraz mostly choose to be Shi'ites. Those born in Provo largely choose Brighamite Mormonism. Funny that.

Ha! Konrad Lorenz would have been fascinated with your theory on the imprinting of religion.

[Morley]

Philosophers are asking if choice is compatible with the notion of determinism. Some say yes some say no. Psychologists assume the world is determined, so if they say "did you have a choice?" they mean something different. I'll defer to Morley on what they mean. Depends on what school of psychology I suppose.

Most clinical psychologists would say that you do have a choice, because that's how they make a living--by helping you find and negotiate the choice that will improve your life. But you're right, Gad, the approach a given psychologist took would be reflected in whatever framework said psychologist had adopted.

One of the pioneers in what's now known as cognitive therapy, Albert Ellis, would say that thought, emotion, and behavior are artificially separated--and that modifying one of the three changes the other two. However, Ellis was attempting to build a theory that would enhance psychological wellbeing, not modify someone's opinion about the physics of angels appearing to farm boys.

In the psychological sense, I'd play devil's advocate here because while I agree, generally, that a person can't just change their beliefs on the fly, they could perhaps change their beliefs. Maybe Morley could believe in God if the right brainwashing techniques were used, or a believer can disbelieve with similar brainwashing techniques?

After being brainwashed, I would certainly maintain that I believed (just to get them to stop)--whether I truly believed or not. That said, I think that under the right circumstances, we are all infinitely mutable.

[Morley]

I'm going to add a coda here.

I think it's clear that the LDS Church is a behavioralist organization. It really only focuses on behavior. They think that if they can get members to change their behavior, then the hearts and minds will follow. You're told to attend church, not criticize the leaders, pay your tithing, go to the temple, hold family home evening, keep your convents, say your prayers. The assumption is that behavior will modify emotion and thought. The leaders believe this so strongly that they're convinced that if someone leaves the church, it must be because they couldn't hack the prescribed behaviors, but instead, wanted to engage in alternate behaviors (ie, they wanted to sin).

MG reflects this attitude all the time when he talks about non-believers not being able to maintain the disciplined activities demanded of those who 'choose belief in a creator God.' Even belief is reduced to behavioral terms. Put things on a self. Listen to the brethren. Choose to believe. If you can't manage belief, it must be because you are not doing something right.