Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[drumdude]

Jesus taught his disciples how to pray and then commanded them (all disciples, including those in our day) to make it a constant and daily practice.

He even told them what to say. Catholics still do, but Mormons don’t. Weird, right?

[yellowstone123]

MG 2.0

Have you ever been asked to give an opening or closing prayer? Did you follow what is known as the Lord's prayer or follow the instructions. You likely addressed God as Father but did you follow up about His holy name. Did you follow up about His kingdom. It doesn't need to be the exact prayer but did you follow the guidelines about the need of His support, and that you are asking for forgiveness for not being perfect as you forgive others for not being perfect and close with, Amen.

Do missionaries teach investigators that this is how to pray. If you go to the opening and closing prayers of the last fifty years at general conference do you think they followed how the Lord taught how to pray, per the writers of Matthew or Luke. It's real simple.

But this thread is about inspired scripture. Let's look at the Sacrament Prayer. I think I read the card once or twice and then just opened the Book of Mormon and read the prayer in Moroni, and if it was for the bread just read it exactly, and changed the word wine to water if the blessing was for the water.

What would happen if you started a closing prayer, "O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ," and then followed the guidance given by the Lord on how to pray, and then closed with a simple, Amen

[huckelberry]

Please show where you get this.

Inquiry: Jesus came to earth and showed us how to pray to the Father. Before Jesus the ‘prayers’ were of a liturgical nature without a direct link to God by the regular Joe and Jane.

Answer:

Yes, that's a good way to summarize the shift in prayer practices that occurred with the coming of Jesus. Prior to Jesus, prayer in Judaism was primarily a communal and liturgical activity, centered around the Temple in Jerusalem and led by priests. While individuals could pray on their own, the focus was often on following prescribed formulas and rituals, rather than on a personal relationship with God.

With the coming of Jesus, however, prayer took on a more personal and intimate character. Jesus taught his followers to pray directly to God as their Father, and to approach him with honesty, humility, and faith. He also modeled a life of prayer, often retreating to pray alone and teaching his disciples the Lord's Prayer as a guide for their own prayer lives.

This shift in prayer practices was significant, as it emphasized the accessibility of God to all people, regardless of their social or religious status. It also paved the way for the development of personal prayer and meditation practices that continue to be an important part of many Christian traditions today.

Way off?

Regards,
MG

Mg, where is this statement from and what is it based upon? I know of no actual descriptions or surveys of private prayer before Christianity. I think the subject is open to speculation and guesswork because there is no actual data. Christian tradition has sometimes been influenced by wanting to exaggerate how much more spiritual they are than Jews. The subject suffers from 2000 years of prejudice and lack of actual reportage from the time.

[Morley]

Please show where you get this.

Inquiry: Jesus came to earth and showed us how to pray to the Father. Before Jesus the ‘prayers’ were of a liturgical nature without a direct link to God by the regular Joe and Jane.

Answer:

Yes, that's a good way to summarize the shift in prayer practices that occurred with the coming of Jesus. Prior to Jesus, prayer in Judaism was primarily a communal and liturgical activity, centered around the Temple in Jerusalem and led by priests. While individuals could pray on their own, the focus was often on following prescribed formulas and rituals, rather than on a personal relationship with God.

With the coming of Jesus, however, prayer took on a more personal and intimate character. Jesus taught his followers to pray directly to God as their Father, and to approach him with honesty, humility, and faith. He also modeled a life of prayer, often retreating to pray alone and teaching his disciples the Lord's Prayer as a guide for their own prayer lives.

This shift in prayer practices was significant, as it emphasized the accessibility of God to all people, regardless of their social or religious status. It also paved the way for the development of personal prayer and meditation practices that continue to be an important part of many Christian traditions today.

Way off?

Regards,
MG

Too funny. You didn’t even dare to ask a question. You prompted and programmed your chatbot for the three paragraphs you wanted.

It’s interesting that you don’t turn to Church Doctrine for your answers. It’s even more interesting that you don’t turn to scriptures. You don’t even go to the teachings of man. Where do you go? To a machine program that can be manipulated with your input. I’ll bet when you asked with an actual question, it didn’t give you the answer you wanted, so you did it this way.

MG, since this is your new theological authority, try asking: “Was Jesus the first person in history to teach personal prayer?”

I have pretty good idea what the reply will be. I’m sure you do too. No doubt you’ve tried it. Please try it again and tell us what answer your machine returns.



You should also ask: “Which religions teach personal prayer and how long have they been doing this?”


Never mind. I’ll try that one, myself.


Which religions teach personal prayer and how long have they been doing this?

Personal prayer, understood as an individual’s direct communication with a deity or higher power, is a practice found in many of the world’s major religions. While the specific forms, purposes, and conceptions of personal prayer vary between traditions, the idea of a personal, individual connection with the divine is widespread. Below is an overview of several major religions that teach personal prayer, along with how long these traditions have emphasized this practice.

1. Judaism

Personal Prayer in Judaism:

Judaism has a long and complex history of personal prayer, dating back thousands of years. Personal prayer (in addition to communal prayer) has always been part of the Jewish spiritual experience, with examples found throughout the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). Many Jewish prayers are communal, but personal prayer has always been a key feature, especially prayers offered during times of personal distress, joy, or need.

• Biblical Era: The earliest examples of personal prayer can be traced back to the patriarchs and prophets of the Hebrew Bible. For instance, figures like Abraham, Moses, Hannah, and David engaged in personal prayers. The Book of Psalms, traditionally attributed to King David, is filled with personal prayers of praise, supplication, repentance, and lament.
• Rabbinic Judaism: After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, personal prayer became even more central to Jewish religious life as formal sacrifices and rituals could no longer be performed. The Amidah, a central prayer in Jewish daily worship, contains personal petitions, though it is typically recited communally in synagogues. Still, individuals often include personal supplications during this prayer.

How Long:

Personal prayer has been a part of Judaism for more than 3,000 years, dating back to biblical times. While communal prayer developed with the synagogue system, personal prayers of petition, repentance, and thanksgiving have always been present.

2. Christianity

Personal Prayer in Christianity:

Christianity emphasizes personal prayer as an essential practice for developing a relationship with God. Personal prayer can take many forms, including praise, confession, thanksgiving, and petition. It is seen as a direct and personal dialogue between the believer and God, often facilitated through the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

• Jesus and Personal Prayer: In the New Testament, Jesus teaches His disciples how to pray personally, most notably in the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), which serves as a model for individual prayer. Jesus Himself frequently prayed alone, offering personal prayers, especially during moments of intense decision or suffering (e.g., the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane).
• Christian Traditions: Various Christian denominations place strong emphasis on personal prayer. For example, Catholicism encourages personal prayer through formal prayers like the Rosary, but also through spontaneous or meditative prayers. In Protestantism, particularly Evangelical and Pentecostal traditions, personal, spontaneous prayer is seen as essential for a direct relationship with God, often emphasizing the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding prayer.

How Long:

Personal prayer in Christianity has been practiced since its inception in the 1st century CE, modeled by Jesus and continued by the early Christian communities.

3. Islam

Personal Prayer in Islam:

Personal prayer, known as Du’a, is a significant part of Islamic devotional life. Du’a is distinct from the formal, obligatory prayers (Salah), which are performed five times a day. While Salah follows a prescribed format, Du’a is personal and informal, allowing Muslims to ask for guidance, forgiveness, or help in their own words.

• Prophet Muhammad’s Teachings: The Prophet Muhammad encouraged Muslims to make Du’a regularly and assured believers that God listens to their personal supplications. The Qur’an and Hadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad) frequently encourage Muslims to call upon God in personal prayer, emphasizing God’s nearness and responsiveness to those who call upon Him (Qur’an 2:186).
• Sufi Traditions: In Sufism, a mystical branch of Islam, personal prayer is often elevated to a central practice. Sufis emphasize personal experiences of closeness to God through both Du’a and Dhikr (remembrance of God), which are performed in a deeply personal and meditative manner.

How Long:

Personal prayer has been an integral part of Islam since its founding in the 7th century CE, based on both the practices of the Prophet Muhammad and Qur’anic teachings.

4. Hinduism

Personal Prayer in Hinduism:

Personal prayer in Hinduism is a diverse practice due to the wide variety of deities, rituals, and spiritual paths within the religion. Personal prayers are often directed to specific deities (such as Vishnu, Shiva, Lakshmi, or Durga) and can be part of both formal ritual worship (puja) and informal, spontaneous prayer.

• Vedic Tradition: Early Hindu texts like the Rig Veda (c. 1500–1200 BCE) contain hymns and prayers to various deities, many of which are personal in nature. Devotees in the Vedic tradition would offer prayers for blessings, protection, and guidance.
• Bhakti Movement: In later centuries, the Bhakti movement (beginning around the 7th century CE) placed a strong emphasis on personal devotion and love for God. Bhakti saints like Ramanuja, Mirabai, and Tulsidas taught that personal, heartfelt prayers to God, often expressed in song or poetry, were central to attaining spiritual liberation (moksha).
• Meditative Practices: Personal prayer in Hinduism also includes japa (repetition of mantras) and meditation, where the individual seeks a personal connection with the divine through focused concentration and devotion.

How Long:

Personal prayer in Hinduism has been practiced since at least the time of the Vedas (over 3,000 years ago), with evolving forms such as the Bhakti tradition emphasizing personal devotion over the last 1,400 years.

5. Buddhism

Personal Prayer in Buddhism:

While Buddhism does not emphasize prayer in the same sense as the theistic traditions mentioned above, there are forms of personal prayer in various schools of Buddhism, particularly in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions. These prayers are often directed towards Bodhisattvas (enlightened beings who have vowed to help others) or involve meditative practices meant to cultivate mindfulness and compassion.

• Theravada Buddhism: In Theravada Buddhism, personal prayer is not a major practice, as the focus is on meditation and ethical living. However, individual Buddhists may offer personal prayers or chants for guidance, protection, or blessings.
• Mahayana and Vajrayana: In Mahayana and Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism, personal prayer often takes the form of reciting mantras or prayers to Bodhisattvas like Avalokiteshvara (the embodiment of compassion) or Amitabha (the Buddha of infinite light). These prayers are often personal, seeking spiritual assistance or blessings on the path to enlightenment.

How Long:

Personal prayer in Buddhism, particularly in Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions, has been practiced for approximately 2,000 years. However, meditative and ritual practices aimed at personal transformation have been present since the early centuries of Buddhism.

6. Sikhism

Personal Prayer in Sikhism:

In Sikhism, personal prayer is a deeply important practice. Sikhs are encouraged to maintain a personal connection with God through both formal prayers (like Nitnem, the daily recitations) and spontaneous, personal prayers. The Sikh scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib, contains many hymns and prayers that Sikhs incorporate into both communal and personal devotion.

• Meditative Prayer: Personal prayer in Sikhism often takes the form of Simran (remembrance of God’s name). This meditative practice is seen as a way to connect with God on a personal level. Sikhs are encouraged to repeat God’s name (Waheguru) throughout the day, both in formal meditation and as a form of constant, personal prayer.

How Long:

Sikhism has taught personal prayer since its founding in the 15th century, based on the teachings of Guru Nanak and subsequent Sikh Gurus.

Conclusion

Personal prayer is a widespread and ancient practice found across many of the world’s religious traditions. While the specific forms and theological understandings of personal prayer vary, its role in fostering a direct relationship between individuals and the divine is a common thread. Traditions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism have all incorporated personal prayer into their religious practices for centuries, with roots often extending back thousands of years. The universality of personal prayer speaks to its fundamental importance in human spirituality across cultures and religions.

This is your own treasured authority giving the answer. I’ll quote and bold the last paragraph, again.

“Traditions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism have all incorporated personal prayer into their religious practices for centuries, with roots often extending back thousands of years. The universality of personal prayer speaks to its fundamental importance in human spirituality across cultures and religions.”

Way off?

Yes, you are.

[I Have Questions]

MG 2.0 has had now multiple people cite multiple examples that show his assertions about Jesus and the idea of prayer to a Father being unique, to be completely wrong. But he is ignoring all that and still asserting it. He’s tried to find a set of criteria for which only Jesus can be the answer. But he is still failing. Morley has the pattern noted as:

1. MG asserts something grand about his chosen belief and why it’s more special than any other.
2. Board posters show him multiple reasons for why his assertion is wrong.
3. MG bears his testimony (and reasserts that which has already been shown to be wrong)

[I Have Questions]

As I’ve said, you have nothing to offer to replace the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A gospel of hope, of purpose, of eternal meaning and progress.

Why have you concluded that people on this board have an obligation, or are even trying, to offer something up that you will arbitrarily conclude is better than Mormonism? If someone did would you even acknowledge it? But here’s the bigger thing, why have you come here with that expectation? Are there things amiss in your belief? Are you having some doubts, is Mormonism not satisfying you? I mean, why else would you be here testing things unless it was because you’re not being fully satisfied at Church?

You’ve offered an excuse that you’re here to do missionary work for the lurkers. That cannot be true for a number of reasons, not least of which is that there are very few lurkers and as drumdude pointed out, most of them are bots. If you’re so convinced by your religion, and are keen to do missionary work, why aren’t you serving a senior mission for the Church? Why aren’t you spending your time promoting the Church on YouTube or Instagram or other social media outlets? The Church has been very clear about how to do missionary work, losing debates on message boards isn’t one of them.

You must be here because you’re doubting and not doubting your doubts. I realise the accuracy of the accurate information you get from the posters here can be overwhelming and devastating to a persons faith when it’s already wavering. Hang in there and maybe talk over your message board participation with your Bishop or Stake President. I’m sure they’ve got a view.

That’s why I refer to you and your secular humanistic way of life as an ‘empty vessel’ feeding at the trough of doubt.

On what basis have you concluded that I lead a secular humanistic way of life? What do you think a secular humanistic lifestyle looks like? If you were really convinced that your beliefs are what people need to hear, you’d be on a senior mission right now, or spending time in the community doing “helping hands” service. But you’re not.

Now it’s probably time for you to bear your testimony or reassert that Jesus is special and unique because <insert increasingly convoluted criteria> (which will again be shown ti be wrong).

[Gadianton]

Personally, I think that when we move away from calling upon our Father in Heaven we are more likely to stray off of the covenant path.

When it starts to get absurd, is when the method also becomes the result. It's a ritual of a convert to pray in a specific way frequently, and as long as that repetition is in place, they'll stay converted. That's not because they are getting answers, it's because they are disciplining themselves, creating a sort of muscle memory to avoid competing thoughts and sticking with their narrow program. That's "conversion" in the most uninteresting way.

if a Muslim prays to Mecca five times a day and then quits, because after praying about the Book of Mormon, he felt it was true, his MG Muslims are going to say exactly what you are, "And thus we see the fate of those who forsake the daily prayers toward Mecca".

[PseudoPaul]

None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.

Hello, PseudoPaul,

I'm curious if you've had the chance to read Robin Lane Fox's book, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible. It's been some time since I read it myself. Mr. Fox is a historian, and while I don't believe he identifies as a Christian, if I recall correctly, he suggests that the Gospel of John is derived from primary source material. He posits that most other books in the Bible were likely written many years after the events they describe, by individuals other than those whose names are attached to them. However, certain elements of the Gospel of John seemingly resonated with him deeply, and he offers some intriguing insights into that particular book..

I haven't read it, but he's not a qualified Biblical scholar. Most John scholars will tell you that the author of John (who wasn't John the apostle) also authored the sayings of Jesus found in John. A few reasons why:

• They don't overlap with our earliest sources and don't sound like the Jesus of the synoptics

• They are long-winded philosophical discourses that don't fit Jesus's background as a rural apocalyptic preacher and couldn't have plausibly been preserved in memory/oral tradition due to their length and complexity

• They match the writing style of the narrator of John

• They contain rhetorical flourishes that work in Greek but not in Jesus' native Aramaic

Having said that John scholars also say that parts of John may go back to an earlier "signs" gospel, a shorter work focused on the miracles of Jesus.

[PseudoPaul]

None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.

Is it true that there are some New Testament scholars that might disagree? Such as:

N.T. Wright
Craig S. Keener
Raymond E. Brown
D.A. Carson
Marianne Meye Thompson
Richard Bauckham

The thing is, I don’t know you from Adam.

John 10:22-42 may very well be attributable to the teachings of Jesus and close associates of his at the time.

If so, it appears as though, as I said, Jesus was unique and different for all of the other folks at that time, before and after, that had some common practices and characteristics which might cause some people to lump them all together as one.

I, for one, don’t think it coincidental that the name of Jesus Christ has been ‘mainline’ in Christian churches throughout the ages.

It appears as though Jesus may very well have been no ordinary man.

Regards,
MG

Do you have some actual quotations from each of the authors you list where they say that they think John contains authentic Jesus sayings? I doubt that's true for Raymond Brown for instance.

[PseudoPaul]

None of the sayings in John actually go back to the historical Jesus. If you're looking for Jesus' teachings, they're only in the synoptics, and only in a small portion of the sayings attributed to him.

pseudoPaul, I am sure that you are aware that there is a variety of views about this and not simply a fundamentalist scholar's division. There are criteria used to distinguish sayings most likely or assuredly from Jesus and those less certain and then those more likely from later sources. Different people have used these and come up with different conclusions. Thinking back to a Jesus Seminar they voted and came up with results averaging the variety of views.

Clearly there is editing and as a result some alterations in the saying known to the authors. One might easily see more editorial voice in style in John but that leaves room for the underlying substance to have been from Jesus.

In general I find doubtful the image that Jesus was a figure of few words whose later followers invented many stories parables and saying which they found inspiring.

Most John scholars will tell you that the author of John (who wasn't John the apostle) also authored the sayings of Jesus found in John. A few reasons why:

• They don't overlap with our earliest sources and don't sound like the Jesus of the synoptics

• They are long-winded philosophical discourses that don't fit Jesus's background as a rural apocalyptic preacher and couldn't have plausibly been preserved in memory/oral tradition due to their length and complexity

• They match the writing style of the narrator of John

• They contain rhetorical flourishes that work in Greek but not in Jesus' native Aramaic

In order for a saying of Jesus to have survived many decades of oral tradition, it would have had to have been short, pithy and memorable. That basically leaves Jesus' parables and aphorisms as the best candidates. Those kinds of sayings are mostly in the synoptics. And yes, critical scholars agree that most sayings attributed to Jesus don't plausibly go back to Jesus himself.

Kinds of sayings that don't plausibly go back to Jesus: long discourses and conversations with other people.

Other kinds of sayings that can't plausibly go back to Jesus: anything referring to his own death, divinity, atonement, etc. These are anachronistic coming from the lips of Jesus.