The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_JLHPROF]

"Consider, for example, that of David Brainerd, an eighteenth-century missionary to the American Indians. He had been experiencing what we today would call a meaning-of-life crisis. In an attempt to resolve it, he resorted to prayer, even though he thought the activity was pointless. But then, he writes,

As I was walking in a thick grove, unspeakable glory seemed to open to the apprehension of my soul. I do not mean any external brightness, nor any imagination of a body of light, but it was a new inward apprehension or view that I had of God, such as I never had before, nor anything which had the least resemblance to it. I had no particular apprehension of any one person in the Trinity, either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost; but it appeared to be Divine glory. My soul rejoiced with joy unspeakable, to see such a God, such a glorious Divine Being. . . . I continued in this state of inward joy, peace, and astonishing, till near dark without any sensible abatement. . . . I felt myself in a new world, and everything about me appeared with a different aspect from what it was wont to do." - a century before Joe (and many others) had very similar experiences.
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/17/secrets_of_seeing_god_the_long_strange_history_of_divine_revelation/

Amazing how the recorded multiple experiences of people can be seen as evidences AGAINST those experiences actually happening.
If there were multiple records of most things happening, those would be considered as evidence for the happening.

[_mentalgymnast]

Why are Mormons particularly susceptible to being conned compared with people that don't use the spirit to guide their decision making?

I think LDS folks to tend to be trusting of others. Joseph Smith was a bit too trusting of John C. Bennett. President Kimball and others were a bit too trusting of Mark Hoffman.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, members of the church...on the whole...are trying their darndest to be the 'pure in heart' that Christ refers to. Part of that 'mindset' lends itself to giving others the benefit of a doubt/forgiveness/tolerance.

I think that in today's age that we live in there may be more of the younger set of Mormons that have and/or are learning from the foibles of those that came before in regards to drawing a line on what/who to trust.

I think I know what you might say next, but I'll wait and see...

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

MG,

You claim to be a centrist, but has there been any Church-approved narratives about the Book of Mormon you 100% believe are false?

- Doc

Would you care to make a list of "Church approved narratives" that you consider to be those that are suspect? And by church approved, we mean doctrinally based, right?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

So because we are reasonable beings rather than disciples of the prophet mentalgymnast, we'll go with the evidence, which indicates an empty bath.

Not much else to say then, on that point.

Regards,
MG

[_Fence Sitter]

Amazing how the recorded multiple experiences of people can be seen as evidences AGAINST those experiences actually happening.
If there were multiple records of most things happening, those would be considered as evidence for the happening.

You are missing the point.

No one is disputing that such experiences were commonly reported, quite the contrary, it seems that conflicting spiritual experiences were just as common then as they are now.

It's the conflict in how experiences were/are viewed, then as now, that is the problem. If my experience tells me Scientology is true and yours tells you Mormonism is true, well, then we have a problem with such experiences as a means to truth now don't we?

[_mentalgymnast]

Some people make no claim to anything so grand as 'spiritual experiences'. Some do. But what they report experiencing is clearly explicable in terms of their upbringing and experience. That's why it is extremely unlikely that it reflects some kind of perception of an objective reality underlying the phenomenal world.

I don't think you either have read and/or understand what I've been saying...and have said over a long period of time. You stick to the same programmed responses, no matter what might be said that might actually add a different dimension to the conversation. It gets a bit tiresome to interject and/or share some divergent ways of looking at the 'same ol', same ol' and get responses that demonstrate show lack of comprehension or a continued parroting of fundamentalist and/or black and white views that may have been one of the reasons that you left the church in the first place. Assuming that you were a member at one time. If not, then I say you have a myopic view of how Mormonism may/can connect/dovetail with what we actually see in the world. Including the world in which we see many folks claiming spiritual insight and/or experience(s).

The fact that you have Mormon 'spiritual experiences' just shows us that (hold on to your seats) you are a Mormon. Nothing else.

Sigh...

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

"Consider, for example, that of David Brainerd, an eighteenth-century missionary to the American Indians. He had been experiencing what we today would call a meaning-of-life crisis. In an attempt to resolve it, he resorted to prayer, even though he thought the activity was pointless. But then, he writes,

As I was walking in a thick grove, unspeakable glory seemed to open to the apprehension of my soul. I do not mean any external brightness, nor any imagination of a body of light, but it was a new inward apprehension or view that I had of God, such as I never had before, nor anything which had the least resemblance to it. I had no particular apprehension of any one person in the Trinity, either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost; but it appeared to be Divine glory. My soul rejoiced with joy unspeakable, to see such a God, such a glorious Divine Being. . . . I continued in this state of inward joy, peace, and astonishing, till near dark without any sensible abatement. . . . I felt myself in a new world, and everything about me appeared with a different aspect from what it was wont to do." - a century before Joe (and many others) had very similar experiences.
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/17/secrets_of_seeing_god_the_long_strange_history_of_divine_revelation/

Amazing how the recorded multiple experiences of people can be seen as evidences AGAINST those experiences actually happening.

Yes, crazy that a bunch of religious fundamentalists read/heard the experiences of other religious fundamentalists and proceeded to produce similar experiences.

If there were multiple records of most things happening, those would be considered as evidence for the happening

Well, that is not true at all - see the coerced 8 witnesses for the Book of Mormon. Also:

"Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies." - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

Anyway, that is not what happened in the case of Joseph Smith and David Brainerd. Multiple people did not share the same experience. Individual people, who had heard of the experiences of others, sought out and attempted to have similar experiences and, shockingly, they did!

For examples similar to what they experienced, see:

bigfoot sightings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHDXmjfR1qc
ufo sighting ...
loch ness monster sightings ...
Leprecaun sightings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Rt56n-vC4
Virgin Mary sighting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKHaNMTRF1o

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

MG,

You claim to be a centrist, but has there been any Church-approved narratives about the Book of Mormon you 100% believe are false?

- Doc

Would you care to make a list of "Church approved narratives" that you consider to be those that are suspect? And by church approved, we mean doctrinally based, right?

Regards,
MG

Sigh. I tried to word it in a way so you wouldn't just weasel the “F” out of the question. How about:

What would you 100% say is wrong with the Book of Mormon that would move you to a centrist position?

- Doc

[_schreech]

"Consider, for example, that of David Brainerd, an eighteenth-century missionary to the American Indians. He had been experiencing what we today would call a meaning-of-life crisis. In an attempt to resolve it, he resorted to prayer, even though he thought the activity was pointless. But then, he writes,

As I was walking in a thick grove, unspeakable glory seemed to open to the apprehension of my soul. I do not mean any external brightness, nor any imagination of a body of light, but it was a new inward apprehension or view that I had of God, such as I never had before, nor anything which had the least resemblance to it. I had no particular apprehension of any one person in the Trinity, either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost; but it appeared to be Divine glory. My soul rejoiced with joy unspeakable, to see such a God, such a glorious Divine Being. . . . I continued in this state of inward joy, peace, and astonishing, till near dark without any sensible abatement. . . . I felt myself in a new world, and everything about me appeared with a different aspect from what it was wont to do." - a century before Joe (and many others) had very similar experiences.
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/17/secrets_of_seeing_god_the_long_strange_history_of_divine_revelation/

Amazing how the recorded multiple experiences of people can be seen as evidences AGAINST those experiences actually happening.
If there were multiple records of most things happening, those would be considered as evidence for the happening.

Since you conveniently disregarded it:

What about the Laffertys? Was the revelation Ron received a valid spiritual experience similar to that of Nephi's when he cut the head off Laban (that is what he claimed the spirit told him)? Were his spiritual experiences as legitimate as the experiences you base your life on?

[_mentalgymnast]

21 pages and not a single response as to whether or not the Koran is man made or God given.

Is there any reason to disbelieve that the Koran contains revelation from God through the Prophet Mohammed? And if it is a revelatory text, are we to assume that it may not also have interjection/inclusion and/or writings from the 'mind' of Mohammed?

21 pages and not a single response to explain how e-meters work that will convince Scientologist they are not what they claim to be.

The human mind is...or at least can be according to some folks...a source of power that can connect with the 'outside' world. Is it possible that this is what we see going on within the Scientologist's and their interaction with e-meters? I have to say, however, from the reading I've done on these folks I don't think I could personally go with their practices. But of course, that's because I'm a Mormon, right?

We cannot simply throw out the Koran and e-meters with the bath water now can we?

No.

It seems there are folks here that simply do not want to have anything to do with Islam or Scientology.

I hope you're not referring to me. I simply didn't find your question that interesting. I've thought about it before and it fits within the paradigm/views I have of the world. The fact that there is a Koran and its adherents, and an e-meter in which certain folks place their trust and powers of the mind, is what I would expect to see.

There are all kinds of folks out there doing/thinking/believing in what they will.

If everyone was a 'carbon copy' of each other...THAT would surprise me.

I'm simply pointing out that the experience that Muslims and Scientologist claim to have had should not be automatically discounted and/or disbelieved.

I agree.

Regards,
MG