Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[MG 2.0]

To be clear, that is not what anyone taught me. That is me telling my story through a different lens than I would ordinarily use to tell it.

Yes, it sounds like something youthful fear and uncertainty might put together rather than something directly taught. I seem to be aware of the idea back in my own memory somewhere, I do not think it was intentionally taught that way.

Just for fun I popped this query into Pi A.I.:

I could tell you my deconversion story through a faithful LDS lens. It would be a cautionary tale that illustrates why “reasoned faith” is not what God asks of his children. Reason is human — the arm of the flesh. What this life is testing is the strength of your faith in the face of your fallen human brain. That’s the test — not when your human reasoning tells you that you’re doing the reasonable thing, but when you’re fallible, mortal brain. This isn’t what the LDS church teaches, is it?

Last sentence is mine. The rest is Res Ipsa.

I got this return:

That's an interesting perspective, and one that is certainly not in line with official LDS teachings.

While it is true that the LDS church emphasizes the importance of faith and spiritual knowledge over purely rational or scientific knowledge, it does not teach that reason or intellectual inquiry are inherently "human" or "fallen."

In fact, the LDS church has a long tradition of encouraging intellectual inquiry and academic scholarship, and many LDS scholars have made significant contributions to fields such as history, literature, and the sciences.

Furthermore, while faith is certainly an important aspect of LDS belief, the church also teaches that individuals should seek knowledge and wisdom through a variety of sources, including reason and personal experience.

So while your deconversion story may illustrate the limitations of reason in certain contexts, it is not necessarily representative of official LDS teachings or the experiences of all LDS members.

For what it’s worth. If there is something out of sync, I’m open to it. It sounds fairly reasonable as far as it goes.

I agree with huck in thinking that faith is not exclusive of reason. I do believe that a reasoned faith is necessary, even more so in today’s world where there are so many reasons given to discard faith. In my opinion there are too many folks that discard faith because they fail to use both reason/intellect and the Spirit/faith when making decisions. I’m talking about society/world as a whole.

I don’t see an inherent danger in reasoned faith with the caveat that, in my opinion, if one leans too heavily on either (just faith or just reason) things might get a little dicey.

And again, this doesn’t apply to just Mormonism. I’m talking about religiosity throughout the breadth and depth of humanity.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Just for fun I popped this query into Pi A.I.:

I could tell you my deconversion story through a faithful LDS lens. It would be a cautionary tale that illustrates why “reasoned faith” is not what God asks of his children. Reason is human — the arm of the flesh. What this life is testing is the strength of your faith in the face of your fallen human brain. That’s the test — not when your human reasoning tells you that you’re doing the reasonable thing, but when you’re fallible, mortal brain. This isn’t what the LDS church teaches, is it?

Last sentence is mine. The rest is Res Ipsa.

I got this return:

That's an interesting perspective, and one that is certainly not in line with official LDS teachings.

While it is true that the LDS church emphasizes the importance of faith and spiritual knowledge over purely rational or scientific knowledge, it does not teach that reason or intellectual inquiry are inherently "human" or "fallen."

In fact, the LDS church has a long tradition of encouraging intellectual inquiry and academic scholarship, and many LDS scholars have made significant contributions to fields such as history, literature, and the sciences.

Furthermore, while faith is certainly an important aspect of LDS belief, the church also teaches that individuals should seek knowledge and wisdom through a variety of sources, including reason and personal experience.

So while your deconversion story may illustrate the limitations of reason in certain contexts, it is not necessarily representative of official LDS teachings or the experiences of all LDS members.

For what it’s worth....

You took RI's words, added your own completely contradictory conclusion, and put it all into an A.I. query????

What a repugnant thing to do. We have reached a whole new realm of intellectual dishonesty. Please don't do that.

[Res Ipsa]

Yes, it sounds like something youthful fear and uncertainty might put together rather than something directly taught. I seem to be aware of the idea back in my own memory somewhere, I do not think it was intentionally taught that way.

Just for fun I popped this query into Pi A.I.:

I could tell you my deconversion story through a faithful LDS lens. It would be a cautionary tale that illustrates why “reasoned faith” is not what God asks of his children. Reason is human — the arm of the flesh. What this life is testing is the strength of your faith in the face of your fallen human brain. That’s the test — not when your human reasoning tells you that you’re doing the reasonable thing, but when you’re fallible, mortal brain. This isn’t what the LDS church teaches, is it?

Last sentence is mine. The rest is Res Ipsa.

I got this return:

That's an interesting perspective, and one that is certainly not in line with official LDS teachings.

While it is true that the LDS church emphasizes the importance of faith and spiritual knowledge over purely rational or scientific knowledge, it does not teach that reason or intellectual inquiry are inherently "human" or "fallen."

In fact, the LDS church has a long tradition of encouraging intellectual inquiry and academic scholarship, and many LDS scholars have made significant contributions to fields such as history, literature, and the sciences.

Furthermore, while faith is certainly an important aspect of LDS belief, the church also teaches that individuals should seek knowledge and wisdom through a variety of sources, including reason and personal experience.

So while your deconversion story may illustrate the limitations of reason in certain contexts, it is not necessarily representative of official LDS teachings or the experiences of all LDS members.

For what it’s worth. If there is something out of sync, I’m open to it. It sounds fairly reasonable as far as it goes.

I agree with huck in thinking that faith is not exclusive of reason. I do believe that a reasoned faith is necessary, even more so in today’s world where there are so many reasons given to discard faith. In my opinion there are too many folks that discard faith because they fail to use both reason/intellect and the Spirit/faith when making decisions. I’m talking about society/world as a whole.

I don’t see an inherent danger in reasoned faith with the caveat that, in my opinion, if one leans too heavily on either (just faith or just reason) things might get a little dicey.

And again, this doesn’t apply to just Mormonism. I’m talking about religiosity throughout the breadth and depth of humanity.

Regards,
MG

MG, I'm with Morley. I have no interest in what MormonAI has to say. I'll note that it fails to quote a single scripture or GA on the issue of the relationship between faith and reason when it comes to a testimony, which is what I was specifically addressing. Am I going to have to start quoting actual sources myself?

[MG 2.0]

MG, I'm with Morley. I have no interest in what MormonAI has to say.

And that’s fine.

Regards,
MG

[yellowstone123]

Rep Ipsa, what is Mormon A.I.? What does citing a scripture or a GA have to do with evaluating Mormonism? Why if gpt 4o or Gemini Advanced fails to follow those conditions does it make it less valid. And who's scripture? Mormonism is about emotions and feelings felt when you attend one of it's plays. If it feels good it must be true like a movie is true when it brings you to tears. Many pages in books brought me to tears so the book must be true a.k.a. it actually occurred.

[Res Ipsa]

Rep Ipsa, what is Mormon A.I.? What does citing a scripture or a GA have to do with evaluating Mormonism? Why if gpt 4o or Gemini Advanced fails to follow those conditions does it make it less valid. And who's scripture? Mormonism is about emotions and feelings felt when you attend one of it's plays. If it feels good it must be true like a movie is true when it brings you to tears. Many pages in books brought me to tears so the book must be true a.k.a. it actually occurred.

It’s possible that I misunderstood, but I thought someone said that the A.I. MG is using is connected with the COJCOLDS.

I don’t know about evaluating Mormonism, but I think examining the scriptures and reading what the prophets, seers and revelators have to say is relevant to what the COJCOLDS teaches.

I think the scriptures and the GA’s are pretty clear that a testimony must be grounded in faith and that relying too much on human reasoning can undermine that faith. That’s not to say that reason has no role at all, but I simply see nothing that advocates for “reasoned faith.”

[yellowstone123]

Rep Ipsa, what is Mormon A.I.? What does citing a scripture or a GA have to do with evaluating Mormonism? Why if gpt 4o or Gemini Advanced fails to follow those conditions does it make it less valid. And who's scripture? Mormonism is about emotions and feelings felt when you attend one of it's plays. If it feels good it must be true like a movie is true when it brings you to tears. Many pages in books brought me to tears so the book must be true a.k.a. it actually occurred.

It’s possible that I misunderstood, but I thought someone said that the A.I. MG is using is connected with the COJCOLDS.

I don’t know about evaluating Mormonism, but I think examining the scriptures and reading what the prophets, seers and revelators have to say is relevant to what the COJCOLDS teaches.

I think the scriptures and the GA’s are pretty clear that a testimony must be grounded in faith and that relying too much on human reasoning can undermine that faith. That’s not to say that reason has no role at all, but I simply see nothing that advocates for “reasoned faith.”

thank you for your thoughtful response, Rep Ipsa.

[MG 2.0]

Rep Ipsa, what is Mormon A.I.? What does citing a scripture or a GA have to do with evaluating Mormonism? Why if gpt 4o or Gemini Advanced fails to follow those conditions does it make it less valid. And who's scripture? Mormonism is about emotions and feelings felt when you attend one of it's plays. If it feels good it must be true like a movie is true when it brings you to tears. Many pages in books brought me to tears so the book must be true a.k.a. it actually occurred.

It’s possible that I misunderstood, but I thought someone said that the A.I. MG is using is connected with the COJCOLDS.

I was using Pi A.I.. So it wasn’t saying anything that in any way was controlled by church techies.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

It’s possible that I misunderstood, but I thought someone said that the A.I. MG is using is connected with the COJCOLDS.

I was using Pi A.I.. So it wasn’t saying anything that in any way was controlled by church techies.

Regards,
MG

Thanks. Not sure why I thought that.

[drumdude]

I was using Pi A.I.. So it wasn’t saying anything that in any way was controlled by church techies.

Regards,
MG

Thanks. Not sure why I thought that.

That one is my fault. I thought he was referring to LDS Bot as Pi A.I.