My dillema - Raising my daughter correctly

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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

asbestosman wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:The problem is it isn't the Dark Ages, or the Middle Ages, or 1846 either. We're living in an INFORMATION AGE. Today you get the one message at church, but you can also get thousands of books from ebay, or you can go online to thousands of websites, or you can sit on a message board and debate these things. The world has shrunk to nothing. You can talk with people of every religious persuasion if you have the net.

I would also like to point out more people going to college. Sure you can go to BYU, but the problem is people are going to a history class or an archaeology class right after theology class. Somewhere along the line you're not going to hear the party line of your religion. That goes for all religions, not just Mormonism.


Exactly! So aren't VR's fears a bit exaggerated? It's not like Mormonism ever forbade me from going to the library and reading whatever I wanted. I've read on evolution, history, logical fallacies, other religions, philosophy, etc. I've been warned against reading anti books, but never forbidden from it (like from coffee or tea).


North Koreans believe they are the most free, blessed people in the world. Mormons believe they have a choice and that the choice they have made is the right one. Mormonism is a religious north korea.

I don't believe you have ever applied anything you have read. You can read all day. Until you apply it you will still be locked into the Mormon mind prison.
Last edited by FAST Enterprise [Crawler] on Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

D&C 45:32

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Gazelam wrote:D&C 45:32

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

When will you stop quoting the ramblings of a con man ans start making substantive posts?
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

VegasRefugee wrote:
Gazelam wrote:D&C 45:32

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

When will you stop quoting the ramblings of a con man ans start making substantive posts?


It's kind of like arguing that Faeries exist by quoting a book allegedly written by Faeries.

On a lighter note. Your daughter is very cute. I'm sure you'll do a fine job raising her.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

VegasRefugee wrote:North Koreans believe they are the most free, blessed people in the world. Mormons believe they have a choice and that the choice they have made is the right one. Mormonism is a religious north korea.


Not according to information on the net:

Human rights

Main article: Human rights in North Korea

Amnesty International and other human rights organizations, including the North American Free Speech Association, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation, severely restricting most freedoms, including freedom of speech and freedom of movement, both inside the country and abroad. The State of World Liberty Index ranks North Korea last out of 159 countries in terms of citizens' freedom.

North Korean exiles have testified as to the existence of detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates, and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder and forced labour.[3][4] Japanese television aired what it said was footage of a prison camp [5]. In some of the camps, US officials and former inmates say the annual mortality rate approaches 20% to 25% [6]. An estimated two million civilians have been killed by the government[25] A former prison guard and army intelligence officer said that in one camp, chemical weapons were tested on prisoners in a gas chamber [7]. According to a former prisoner, pregnant women inside the camps are often forced to have abortions or the newborn child is killed [8]. The people of South Korea have also been implicated in terrorist attacks in North Korea, [26] (Wahn Kihl 1983: 106) as well as assassinations of dissidents in nearby states.[27] . The government of North Korea has not replied to any these accusations, but it refuses to admit independent human rights observers to the state.
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Ray A wrote:
VegasRefugee wrote:North Koreans believe they are the most free, blessed people in the world. Mormons believe they have a choice and that the choice they have made is the right one. Mormonism is a religious north korea.


Not according to information on the net:

Human rights

Main article: Human rights in North Korea

Amnesty International and other human rights organizations, including the North American Free Speech Association, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation, severely restricting most freedoms, including freedom of speech and freedom of movement, both inside the country and abroad. The State of World Liberty Index ranks North Korea last out of 159 countries in terms of citizens' freedom.

North Korean exiles have testified as to the existence of detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates, and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder and forced labour.[3][4] Japanese television aired what it said was footage of a prison camp [5]. In some of the camps, US officials and former inmates say the annual mortality rate approaches 20% to 25% [6]. An estimated two million civilians have been killed by the government[25] A former prison guard and army intelligence officer said that in one camp, chemical weapons were tested on prisoners in a gas chamber [7]. According to a former prisoner, pregnant women inside the camps are often forced to have abortions or the newborn child is killed [8]. The people of South Korea have also been implicated in terrorist attacks in North Korea, [26] (Wahn Kihl 1983: 106) as well as assassinations of dissidents in nearby states.[27] . The government of North Korea has not replied to any these accusations, but it refuses to admit independent human rights observers to the state.


You totally missed the point of that. North Koreans are told literally day and night how wonderful it is to live in the DPRK. Agreed?

Mormons are told day and night how blessed they are to be Mormon. Agreed?

Do you even read what I post?
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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Runtu wrote:
VegasRefugee wrote:
Gazelam wrote:D&C 45:32

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

When will you stop quoting the ramblings of a con man ans start making substantive posts?


It's kind of like arguing that Faeries exist by quoting a book allegedly written by Faeries.

On a lighter note. Your daughter is very cute. I'm sure you'll do a fine job raising her.


I'm sure in his mind the argument is over.

Religion is a method for ending an argument in your head. All gaz is doing is applying the circular reasoning going on in his head. Life imitating art imitating life.
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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

VegasRefugee wrote:You totally missed the point of that. North Koreans are told literally day and night how wonderful it is to live in the DPRK. Agreed?

Mormons are told day and night how blessed they are to be Mormon. Agreed?

Do you even read what I post?


You didn't say they "are told", you wrote "they believe". I'd like to see some evidence they really believe that. There is simply no comparison here to Mormonism. Zilch.
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Ray A wrote:
VegasRefugee wrote:You totally missed the point of that. North Koreans are told literally day and night how wonderful it is to live in the DPRK. Agreed?

Mormons are told day and night how blessed they are to be Mormon. Agreed?

Do you even read what I post?


You didn't say they "are told", you wrote "they believe". I'd like to see some evidence they really believe that. There is simply no comparison here to Mormonism. Zilch.


In listening to an NPR piece on the subject, the citizens of the DPRK believe, at least outwardly that they are living in paradise. they LITERALLY believe it. They have been living under a totalitarian regime their whole life, brought up to believe they are at war with the US. The DPRK govt tells the people that the supply ships carrying food for the people were sunk by the US and that's why there is no food.

Mormons believe that every negative incident involving Mormonism is caused by the "hatred" of "the world" towards "the one true religion".

How are tehse two situations any different psychologically in respect to the information campaign? I'm not talking about the atrocities committed by the DPRK. But using the mountain meadows massacre as a yardstick I doubt, given a speculated continuation of Mormon control, ALA "Deseret", that things would be just as bad. Starvation, yes. Exploitation? yes. Deseret not coming to fruition avoided the possibility of bloody brigham becoming an even bigger dictator.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

VegasRefugee wrote:
In listening to an NPR piece on the subject, the citizens of the DPRK believe, at least outwardly that they are living in paradise. they LITERALLY believe it. They have been living under a totalitarian regime their whole life, brought up to believe they are at war with the US. The DPRK govt tells the people that the supply ships carrying food for the people were sunk by the US and that's why there is no food.


I did some searching through NPR and couldn't find anything on that subject, so if you have a link to that program I'd prefer to read/hear it myself. If they are outwardly living in paradise long reports with statements like this make no sense:

The country's traditional highly centralized and tightly controlled economy has broken down under the stress of chronic shortages of food and fuel. Citizens increasingly have sought employment in the informal economy. Most citizens must supplement limited amounts of government-subsidized rations with food purchased in markets.


There is also torture and starvation going on en masse. A local journalist who visited NK said the conditions are appalling. Sure, there is propaganda, but I question whether North Koreans really believe this, which is why I'd like to hear the report (I'm very skeptical of media reports too, and don't make judgements on one or two reports). The Iraqi government can tell Iraqis everything is "great" too, that they are really in paradise, but will they believe it? One report from the NPR isn't good enough for me, and I haven't even heard that report. So excuse me, but I'm a skeptic.

Mormons believe that every negative incident involving Mormonism is caused by the "hatred" of "the world" towards "the one true religion".

How are tehse two situations any different psychologically in respect to the information campaign? I'm not talking about the atrocities committed by the DPRK. But using the mountain meadows massacre as a yardstick I doubt, given a speculated continuation of Mormon control, ALA "Deseret", that things would be just as bad. Starvation, yes. Exploitation? yes. Deseret not coming to fruition avoided the possibility of bloody brigham becoming an even bigger dictator.


This is all speculation. You're not dealing with the facts. And the fact is that Mormons capitulated to the US government. So much for the purported "theocracy". How it might have evolved has nothing to do with the reality of how it did evolve. I am aware of what went on in the 19th century as I have Bigler's Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West, 1847-1896 (USU Press, 1998). See his "epilogue" especially for how Mormonism eventually evolved.

Do you mean information campaign, or disinformation campaign? On this subject, your daughter is entitled to hear or read ALL that she wants, and with you as her father I doubt she will be the subject of hearing only one side. What you should be careful of is that she doesn't grow up hating Mormonism.
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