Wanna talk about the Bible?

[_Sam Harris]

This is the case of the perpetual victim. She makes sure that all suffer with her. If you want pity, you have it.

P

I swear, the TBMs here are hilariously notorious for contributing absolutely NOTHING in the form of substance to the boards they visit.

Plutarch, get a hobby.

I am not a victim, I'm too loud for that. But I understand the threat to your "priesthood" that a loud female poses. It's ok. When you're done dazzling them in the courtroom with your lack of logic, you can come back here and amuse us more. We love it.

Why don't you just celebrate the Triumph who is Christ Jesus? In Him all are welcome, all are invited. I know you view Mormonism as restrictive and exclusive. Fine; if you are now an evangelical then let's hear how Jesus Christ triumphs over the close-mindedness of Mormonism. Hate-filled invective against "TBMs" might be cathartic, I supposed, for you. It just makes everybody else miserable.

Tell us how living a fornicating lifestyle comports with the Pauline view of Christ Jesus?

P

Plutarch, this is not a court room, so trying to paint untruthful pictures of people's inner lives to support your case will not work here. Do you see me from day to day? I'm sorry that pointing out the elitism of your faith bothers you, but if it bothers you that much, do something about it. TBMs (thank God) do not make up the entire population of the LDS faith, they are just the sickest part of it. They are the fundamentalists of the Mormon religion. If this poses a problem for you, stop whining, and make change.

Do you even know what the word evangelize means? Not "televangelism", but actual spreading of the "Good News", the truth that God loves and values everyone?

There is a book that I read in the last two years that I was LDS, which had a very positive impact on my spiritual journey. It's called "Woman, Thou Art Loosed". It was aimed at women who had experienced abuse in thier younger years, giving them hope that God could heal them, and give them not only a true sense of their self-worth, but happiness as well.

Being surrounded by TBMs never did that for me. And sadly, the lot of you are so loud and insistent that your way of seeing Mormonism is right, that the rest of the church literally has to sit back and be silent next to you on sunday. That is sick!

You wanna know about the joy of Jesus in my life? I doubt you will take anything from what I'm about to tell you in a positive way, your picture has already been painted, but I'll go out on a limb anyway. Please bear in mind that I have to tell a little bit of where I've been to get you to understand the joy of where I am now.

I grew up an orphan with living parents. Dad broke every promise he made, mom just beat me like a slave, called me names, and s*** on my dreams. Got beat at school, got beat at home. I have lost on average one loved one every three years since birth, and almost all of them have been those who were ones who cared if I had a future or not. Dad's been gone for four years, and I got blamed for his death for the sin of asking him to feed his kids.

I spent ten years fighting the urge to commit suicide, starting at age 12. I spent 20 years depressed, starting at age 5. I cannot recall a day when I thought as a child, and I caught hell from the first day I was placed in the presence of other children, because I saw them as children, subordinates to me, an adult. I never had the chance to live in a world of just being a kid, I always had to watch my surroundings to make sure I was gonna be ok, because no one else was looking out for me.

The epiphany came when I was 22, spending what I hope to be the last time in a hospital due to my depression. My dad had just died, no one seemed to care that I was grieving too, and I just couldn't take it. The docs told me they would take my freedom, put me away by court order in the psych ward down the hall, and not let me out until they saw fit. I didn't want that. As scared as I was of living, I had to try.

Three years later, looking at me, you wouldn't even know what I've been through. People come up to me and ask me why I'm so happy. I look in the mirror, and for the first time see a strikingly beautiful woman looking back at me, where there was once a scared girl with scratch marks on her face. I used to cower when rejected by men, I used to let them use me, now you either kiss the royal ring or get the steppin'. I wake up every morning, EVERY MORNING, PLUTARCH, and give thanks. I used to wake up every morning and wish to die. I listen to CC or Gospel music sometimes on the way to work, and I don't care who sees the tears on my face, so happy I am to hear the truth of what those words are saying. I have a joy and a peace to my life now that I never thought I would have. Never. I never thought I'd ever know what it felt like to be happy. I never considered myself to be blessed growing up.

And you know what? Not much has changed in my life, that's the crazy part. My family is as deranged as ever. I'm still the black sheep, despite the fact that I'm the only one who hasn't gotten pregnant yet, done drugs, or ended up in jail. I work two jobs and go to school full time. And I'm hated for it.

But it doesn't matter. Why?

Because I know now that it's not just about WHO I am, it's about WHOSE I am.

From my mid teens, when I first started going to church until now, I have spent many a night alone with God. Anyone who believes in God who struggles with depression can tell you just how hard it is to hear that still, small, voice, as LDS speak of it. It's very difficult. But in all those nights of crying and praying, slowly, surely, something sank in. The true knowledge of what I'm worth to HIM, that is like the sun in comparison to the measly candle flame of your esteem of me. The rediscovery of my dreams, the feeling of just being wrapped in love, even when no one else is around. The knowledge of whose I am in the mist of every person who wishes to villify me for not bending to their conditional love....why? Because I've tasted the unconditional. I revel in being who I am, and do not change according to man's standards. God changes me and in good time. And I walk in a peace that surpasses most people's understanding, because in their limited world, they don't understand how someone as "vicious" (in other words rebellious) as me can know anything about God.

Taste and see, P. You haven't. If you had, you wouldn't care too much about being perfect by any church's standards. I don't even have to go to church to commune with God, that's a daily event. Ritual doesn't matter, man's standards doesn't matter. This is a one-on-one affair, a love affair of the best kind. Can you even grasp what I'm saying? Something tells me no.

[_Sam Harris]

Great, now not only am I an arrogant polluter, but I'm also without substace.

Thanks GIMR, I think I need to book a session with Wade now...my self esteem is shot.

Beware Gaz, you sure that's the best thing to do? LOL

I think you have some substance to you, it's kind of baby food-like in texture. Let's hope its fruit-flavored. Fruit flavored baby food is good. It's the vegetables I'm scared of...and the meat. Pureed meat? Bleech.

[_Sam Harris]

Oh I was only joking. GIMR and I have a good relationship with each other and have shared some nice PM's.

She maid some blanket comments concerning TBM's so I said what I said. that's all.

Liz:

Sometimes, I do think your comments are a bit arrogant

People used to say the same thing about Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and Bruce R. McConkie. I guess I stand in good company, not that I am worthy to latch those mens shoes.

I think I speak with authority when I say most of what I say in regards to doctrine. If that comes off as arrogant, it is only because it caries the weight of the truth behind it.

I've also been impressed with your knowledge of the scriptures, so I don't think that what you say is without substance. Sometimes, though, I think that if you are presenting an argument to the "masses", it would be interesting for you to look beyond the bounds of LDS scripture, and also substantiate your claims through other sources. (in a companionable way...not instead of).

Thank you for your compliment. Its amazing the illusion that can be given from the use of a good Topical guide. : ) lol

I tend to stock my shelf with commentarys and other books from the LDS publishers that I know to be good sources. I do drop by a Born again Christian Bookstore near my home to see if they have anything of interest. I picked up a comentary on Temple worship in ancient times, and recently picked up a copy of the writings of Eusibius (spellcheck). Tey are haviing a big sale next month, and I'll see if I can stop by. If any of you Born agains who stop by this board would like to recommend something, please do so. (Not that I don't have a huge stack to go through already. This board keeps me from my proper studies)

all the best

Gaz

Beware of those Jesus bookstores, man. A lot of them have those "cult" sections, and Mormons are always in there. I never liked that part of the bookstore. I actually have to take a class that's supposed to examine the beliefs of some cults. I wonder what they'll say about the LDS church...and how many corrections I'll have to make.

Liz is right, however. Sometimes Gaz, you drone on worse than a Baptist preacher shouting in a microphone. That's annoying...and it makes it difficult to sleep on sunday, trust me. How can you tune out a man who is not making any sense, when he's yelling and the mic is literally in his mouth?

Edited for spelling...and to congratulate Gaz on the integrity of citing your sources. Some folks come online claiming to be so intelligent...but you're playing on the biggest encyclopedia in existence, puh-lease! Yes, there are some brilliant minds out there, but they actually show you what they've learned, they point to the source, not just claim to be able to take you down a notch without actually doing so.

[_Yoda]

Can you even grasp what I'm saying? Something tells me no.

I agree, GIMR.

For what it's worth, I was very touched by your comments and your story. Of course, I have been touched by many things you have written here.

Unfortunately, trying to convince Plutarch of anything like this is "casting pearls before swine."

Maybe Plutarch is familiar with that scripture. ;)

[_Sam Harris]

Why don't you just celebrate the Triumph who is Christ Jesus? In Him all are welcome, all are invited. I know you view Mormonism as restrictive and exclusive. Fine; if you are now an evangelical then let's hear how Jesus Christ triumphs over the close-mindedness of Mormonism. Hate-filled invective against "TBMs" might be cathartic, I supposed, for you. It just makes everybody else miserable.

Tell us how living a fornicating lifestyle comports with the Pauline view of Christ Jesus?

P

WTF? Is your reading comprehension really that poor?

When has GIMR EVER stated that a "fornicating lifestyle comports with the Pauline view of Christ Jesus"?

Have you actually READ any of her threads on how she worships Christ? Obviously NOT, by this comment.

Unfortunately, GIMR was hurt by some very bonehead TBM's, both in real life, and in the cyber world on FAIR.

She seems very well-adjusted to me, and is moving on with her life. However, if she is challenged, she is going to apply things to the perspective from which she is coming from.

You are such a typical TBM. I'm embarassed to belong to the same Church as you do. You are so far from exhibiting the caring characteristics of Christ, it's laughable. Well, if would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

If you really did serve as a bishop, I hope for the sake of the congregation you served, that your heart was more open, and that the spirit took over where your personality OBVIOUSLY fails. Otherwise, I pity those poor people who had to deal with you.

LOL, Liz, I had missed that last line of his. Probably for the best. I wonder where P gets the idea that I screw around, and I wonder who he is to tell others how to live their life...and I also wonder how he thinks that the Pauline view of Jesus Christ is the only one of worth, just because it made canon...a decision made by other men, born of women just like him.

Thanks for your posts. It's not been an easy road, but I'm happy where I am. I could be an anti-mormon, I could hate everything that has to do with the church. I just relentlessly tease fundie TBMs, and since they're completely enmeshed with their view of what the church is to them, they feel I'm stomping on their nerves. Not my problem.

To be even more facetious, what's the scripture in D&C 121 about exercising unrighteous dominion? Some people just have to have their egos/priesthoods stroked. I've never been good at that, sorry P!

[_bcspace]

Well let's see. GIMR posted a whole lot of nothing relative to the topic (in which she claimed that the Bible contradicts LDS doctrine). Here is about the only thing that fits.....

Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and show us all those scriptures that says that God is in essence many gods.

The Bible simply teaches the plurality of Gods. It says nothing about the Three being the same essence. Let's see how you swallow on John 20:17 and then I'll give you another. Perhaps something from Hebrews or Exodus.......I noticed you are now avoiding 1 Cor 8:4-6. lol

I hate ignorance so much. Did you not see the QUOTATION MARKS around the words "gods" and "lords"? What does it usually mean when you put quotation marks around something? Here, let me help you. I think you're really "insightful"

Well, you're the one who brought up the Greek. I have my Lexicon handy, why don't you tell us what they mean and we'll see if you're right. You might also tell us what version of the Bible you are using and what the creators of that version said about the quotation marks.

Hint: The Lexicon shows no need for any quotation marks when translating from the MSS and renders "as there be gods many and lords many" as real and divine Gods.

Of course Oral Roberts has a vested interest in minimizing the impact of certain verses......

[_rcrocket]

My comment about a "fornicating lifestyle" had nothing to do with GIMR. I seemed to deduce from her posts in the past her belief that fornication and sexual misconduct was completely compatible with Pauline Christianity. NOw I see she might reject Paul.

THat's OK. I would like to have a biblical discussion with GIMR about the need to adhere to God's moral standard as a precondition to Christian belief. She says she is a theology student. Yet, I am treated with a download of all the abuses she has suffered in her life, together with a castigation of my courtroom skills.

I fully concede that I am a lousy lawyer, so hopefully we can get beyond that. My queries aren't really about me. I don't think GIMR's history of her life is really germane to a discussion of her theology.

So I reiterate, without reference to Paul. Does GIMR maintain that a sexually promiscuous lifestyle is compatible with Christian teachings? If so, what is the basis for that belief?

P

[_Sam Harris]

*smiles*

kurios...hmmm....

he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master this title is given to: God, the Messiah

So you're telling me that there is more than one "Messiah". Ok....

You're also telling me that any sort of sovreignty means that it's on a universal scale. So Bush rules the universe because he rules (somewhat) over this country.

Master, Lord, Posessor....

So slave owners past and present are gods. Codependent controlling people are gods.

"insightful".

This doesn't prove that there is more than one God. It proves that people can hold in high esteem many people, places, things, books, prophets, etc. But it doesn't prove there is more than one God.

Even the other words for lords don't fit your pititful hermeunetics.

megistavn

the grandees, magnates, nobles, chief men
of a city or a people of the associates or courtiers of a king

kurieuvw

to be lord of, to rule, have dominion over of things and forces

katakuvptw

to bring under one's power, to subject one's self, to subdue, master to hold in subjection, to be master of, exercise lordship over

Where do any of these indicate that these words should be used in a spiritual sense?

All of the words for lord in greek mean ruler or master...but of what? You had to add that in, BCSpace.

Onto the word theos, used in 1 Cor. 8...again, you had to select what best fits your view out of the many definitions for this word...but just because you chose it doesn't make it right, anymore than your claiming your church is the restored church makes it so...just wanted to point that out to you..

qeov

a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity Christ, the second person of the trinity Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God his counsels, interests, things due to him whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
God's representative or viceregent
of magistrates and judges

So, what did you pick out of the above to twist? Are these gods and goddesses they speak of greek statues that are worshipped or the great I AM?

Which is it gonna be?

Happy flipping through that lexicon.

[_Sam Harris]

My comment about a "fornicating lifestyle" had nothing to do with GIMR. I seemed to deduce from her posts in the past her belief that fornication and sexual misconduct was completely compatible with Pauline Christianity. NOw I see she might reject Paul.

THat's OK. I would like to have a biblical discussion with GIMR about the need to adhere to God's moral standard as a precondition to Christian belief. She says she is a theology student. Yet, I am treated with a download of all the abuses she has suffered in her life, together with a castigation of my courtroom skills.

I fully concede that I am a lousy lawyer, so hopefully we can get beyond that. My queries aren't really about me. I don't think GIMR's history of her life is really germane to a discussion of her theology.

So I reiterate, without reference to Paul. Does GIMR maintain that a sexually promiscuous lifestyle is compatible with Christian teachings? If so, what is the basis for that belief?

P

P, you played right into what I thought you would. You missed the testimony, instead you focused on the negative. Typical TBM inability to see the forest for the trees, the goodness in anything other than their fundamentalist view of their church. Yes, you are a lousy lawyer. You have no ability to successfully defend your faith.

You have no right to assume that I'm promniscuous. You also have no right to assume that your inadequate reading of Paul's texts can hold up to this discussion. Paul was writing during a time when it was believed that the world would soon end. A couple of millenium later, and we still haven't stopped focusing on this. I prefer to live the best I can each day.

P, do you know anything about marriage in the Ancient Near East? Was it anything like the legal process that we go through today? Or did the man simply go through a ritual, take the woman into his tent, bed her, and have done with it? Outside of the feasts and dowries, what was done? I'm curious to see what you know.

What I would also like to know is how the hell you got on this subject? If the TBMs aren't calling me racist, they're insinuating I'm a slut.

P, have you ever walked outside the TBM world?

Do you know how many students of theology there are who look at Paul and the Bible as a whole with a critical eye? That doesn't mean they're looking to disparage, that means that they use their brains, and put things in the proper context. What have you learned about ancient Israelite culture outside of what your leaders put before you? What?

1 Cor 6:12-20 speaks of sexual immorality...what is that? Is it abusing your body by letting many people have pleasure with it, or is it simply having sex outside of marriage? In 1 Cor 7, when Paul says marry, then says don't marry...how can you come across such an anomaly? Marry so you won't be immoral...but if you're not married, don't?

It is my understanding that in that time the idea of rasing a family was irrelevant because Christ was expected to return very soon. Paul (who some feel was extremely homophobic...like some TBMs here...hmmm) was a follower of Christ, but was not speaking for him. Many have come after him. There were things within Paul's message that made a lot of sense, like the unbelieving spouse being sanctified by the believing one's example. But there were also things that did not make a lot of sense for the lives of everyone, like complete celibacy.

Those with minds of their own can take what is valuable for them from Paul's message, and that of the entire Bible. And those with minds of their own don't feel tied down by myopic fundamentalist views of other people as what a theologian is.

P, you're out of your league. There are plenty of theologians out there who don't fit your standards, and they're no less of a person than you. For some strange reason, the school I attend separates theology from divinity. Perhaps that is because divinity is actually the path to becoming a pastor, which I'm not sure I should do. Some folks like to wear the mantle of priest or prophet because it makes them feel important. I would rather not take upon my shoulders what God does not intend to be there. The study of theology looks at religious belief as a whole, it can have emphasis on certain faiths, but not necessarily. I want to learn about all faiths...so your limited and prejudiced view of how I should live my life is moot.

Anything else?

[_bcspace]

Onto the word theos, used in 1 Cor. 8...again, you had to select what best fits your view out of the many definitions for this word...but just because you chose it doesn't make it right, anymore than your claiming your church is the restored church makes it so...just wanted to point that out to you..

But the one thing you failed to point out is that idols or graven images is not one of the selections in the Lexicon. Another nice thing about a Lexicon (like Strong's and Thayer's) is that not only are possible definitions given, but they are actually applied to many verses. So here we have one of the most popular nonLDS Christian Lexicons taking the LDS view or at least not contradicting it.

Of course we need not have consulted the Lexicon at all but simply looked at the grammar which distinguishes between idols and real and divine Gods anyway.

by the way. I notice GIMR still has no answer for John 20:17, that Jesus has a God and it's the same God as our God. So now we know that Jesus is God (John 1) AND Jesus has a God. Plurality of Gods, just as the first Christians taught.