Roger Morrison wrote:There is little question about THE Mormon "God" loving conditionally. If that isn't obvious to anyone who thinks they know Mormonism...then it is obvious they don't KNOW/UNDERSTAND the crieteria of Mormonism. As to Fundies today, i would say generally speaking they do/might... As for "God" there is absolutely no question! "God" is no respector of persons... Rain and sun produce life essentials for every living creature that crawls, walks, swims or flies in the realms of our Universe. If one stops unacceptable behaviour they immediately begin to experience the effects of so going; no rituals or membership required.
As Jesus repeatedly told those of his day, who considered themselves Official Reps of "God", "...You don't know "God"..." so, i respectfully suggest WE are just at the beginning of making "God's" aquaintance today. And 'Officialdom' plays absolutely no part in the relationship! Warm regards, Roger
Roger, thank you for bringing your point of view to this discussion. I myself for many years wanted nothing to do with Christianity. I saw all Christians the way that many who are not within mainstream Christianity see the loudest and most vitrolic of them. I wanted nothing to do with this. But as time passed, and my interest in theology grew, I began to do my own searching, at first I could not find a "church home" that I felt comfortable in, and this search began at a time when I was fluctuating within my faith as a Mormon. I remebered the things I went through at the hands of people who called themselves Christians in my youth, and I allowed the LDS church to further train my thinking, by telling me that most mainstream Christians were "Evangelicals" (fundamentalist to the trained and impassionate eye), and while they all were damning folks to hell, we good Mormons were simply damning mankind to a lesser heaven, which when compared to hell was far more pleasant.
It was not until I picked my spiritual life back up that I realised that a "lesser heaven" was no heaven at all if I were locked away from God. But when you are in the midst of such a mindset, you can usually not see this.
I'm not Christian because I think it's the best religion out there, this has nothing to do with anyone but me. And I am at times a severe critic of my own faith, even now. I was thinking about it earlier today, spirituality has nothing to do with history, and every one has their own myths. Even as I read No Man Knows My History (I wanted to see what all the fuss on both sides was about), I can see how people would believe Smith's claims, and that is why I refuse to even recommend this book to my LDS friends. If they are happy where they are, then that is where they need be. Some people's faith cannot take the intense scrutiny that historical inquiry entails. I was amused to learn of the pagan origins of many of Christianity's festivals and beliefs, not disheartened, and definitely not disillusioned. That's because I am focused more on the spiritual theories and truths that can be utilized than I am on whether or not the stories are 100% historically accurate. Which is why my "straw" that broke the camel's back so to speak, was never historical accuracy with regards to the Book of Mormon. I didn't care about that. It was the spiritual disenfranchisement that I saw within this belief system that I neither liked nor felt I had control over. And I see it in mainstream Christianity, too! But out here, I'm free. If I want to become ordained and start writing books like Spong, if I want to voice my opinion, if I want to shepard a church that is indeed evangelical in style and yet welcomes all (again, some on this thread do not understand the meaning of the word evangelical, so they will scoff at what I am saying, all they see is people who hate when they hear or read that word), I can do that! In the LDS church I was relegated to a back seat, shut up, have your kids if someone can look past the surface long enough to want to marry you, and do what you're told, or be disciplined. Sorry, but no Gospel music in sacrament, takes away the spirituality. Leave that to a fireside in the gym, none of that rifraf in our sanctuary. Be discreet about voicing your opinions, or we will take action.
These days I worry about none of that. If I pick up Spong, or if I pick up Sam Harris, the latter which I intend to pick up very soon, no one is going to do anything to me.
Yes, Christianity as a whole is really off kilter these days. Part of that I believe to be a result of mankind not wanting to take responsibility for their lives, temporally and spiritually. Apparently the task of existence is so scary that we are willing to delegate our right to think for ourselves to a man behind a pulpit. Anne Rice put it perfectly:
"Very few beings really seek knowledge in this world. Mortal or immortal, very few really ask. On the contrary, they try to wring from the unknown the answers they have alread shaped in their own minds-justifications, confirmations, forms of consolation without which they can't go on. To really ask to open the door to the whirlwind. The answer may annihilate the question and the questionner."
-The Vampire Lestat by Anne Rice
I love Rice's books, because she really touches on the deep theological questions that we all have, and she does it so eloquently. If you haven't already, I'd recommend reading her newest book, Christ the Lord out of Egypt. It's a good read.
Mainstream Christianity in this country and around the world has been duped by fundamentalism. And all fundamentalism is is the fear of the unknown, which uses God as a weapon against others. This was NOT the original message of Christ. Sadly, people pick and choose the scriptures that they want to take out of context to prove that the Christian God is hateful, but they are coming at the act like the fundamentalists, as if God wrote the Bible himself. Look at this scripture:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. NASB
Ok, this scripture has often been used to "prove" that God is a bigot. But are we looking at Jesus as a person, as a symbol, as a deity? When I read this scripture, the first thing I thought of was, well, what does Christ represent? To me, love, patience, kindness, integrity. And yes, these things ARE the way, the truth, and the life, and you cannot have a meaningful life without these things. But if you lazily scrape the surfce and just say well, they're talking about Jesus, without looking at all that the figure and man was supposed to have stood for, then you completely miss the point, and it's no wonder people get so confused.
Here's another one that I didn't think about much, but many have used it to jusfity the rapture, which isn't biblical at all. It's funny, my grandma has a painting of a city with all these ghost figures coming up out of graves, buildings and cars, with Christ standing on a cloud above it all. I thought it rediculous then, I think it rediculous now.
Matthew 24:40-41
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Here once again, interpretation comes into play, and here once again, those who want to paint the Christian God to be anything less than loving put into these lines what is not there. It does not say who will be taken, but most assume that this is the rapture, that the righteous will be taken, and the wicked left to suffer. But it doesn't say this! And verses 15 through 24 don't speak of an end times that we're to soon see, it speaks of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, which from my understanding occured in AD 70.
In my readings, unless I'm that much of a bigot, and don't realize it, I see a God of love, who speaks many sprititual languages, as careful perusal of the stories and teachings of the Bible can prove. But I also see a text colored by the cultural perceptions of the men who wrote it, and I take that into context when studying. But I'm beating a dead horse at this point, it is simply easier to come to a conclusion than it is to do the homework involved to back that conclusion. There was a time when I had no idea what the words "tentative monotheism", "retribution principle", and "tradition of the elders" meant among many others. Hence, when reading the Bible, the actions of the people in it, the bloodshed, the agony of the psalms, even the acts of the pharisees in Jesus' time confused and at times horrified me. I see more now, but I want to see even more. Because now I understand how little I do know about God. But again, beating the dead horse.