maklelan wrote:guy sajer wrote:And you've no doubt taken a wide survey of the rank and file to support your contention that this is a well-known doctrine. My sample is as small and biased as yours, so our conclusions are equally valid or invalid. My sample, however, is sufficient to demonstrate that being smart and informed does not necessarily mean someone knows this particular doctrine inside and out.
Well, I've taught it countless times on my mission. I've taught it in several Sunday School classes where everyone knew it. I've been in three different Institute classes that addressed it and everyone knew it, and I've just recently asked everyone immediately available to me and they all knew it. How big a sample would you like me to take before it has the same value as the three people you asked?
guy sajer wrote:I note that you just, by inference, accused my wife and father of being ignorant, people whom you've never met. I'm confident that my wife is vastly your intellectual superior.
You don't have to assume that my statement goes beyond anything but gospel knowledge, but you appear to want to.
guy sajer wrote:This statement only goes to show your naivte. You remind me of a new parent lecturing parents of teenagers on how they should discipline their child. The whole world is a figgn' abstraction to you, so lacking in real world experience as your twenty some odd years make you.
And you base this off of an assumption that I don't have any experience, but, as I've stated before, you have no idea what my experiences have been.
guy sajer wrote:You'll figure out one day that you know a whole lot less than you think you do.
I figure that out every day, but you always manage to make me feel better.
guy sajer wrote:Your welcome to give it a shot to say it.
This sentence doesn't make much sense.
guy sajer wrote:OK, I'm lost here. What's your point of reference?
The statement below comes in closing a post that basically said that Romney's a liar and that the doctrine that I've pointed out is not subscribed to by Mormons. I called this person on the statement below and showed exactly what the doctrine is.
Who Knows wrote:And you can stop with the church lesson - i know what the church teaches.
guy sajer wrote:Again, you and I disagree on how common of a doctrine this is and how well known it is. You have your twenty years and theoretical abstractions; I have double that plus interactions with LDS Church members in mulitple contries on multiple continents. This doesn't necessarily make me correct, but it at least means that my views are not wholly misinforned or based on theoretical propositions.
All I need is interaction with multiple church members in multiple countries on multiple continents? I've got that. In fact I've been a church
leader on a different continent, as well as interacted with church members in several countries and on other continents as a member
and as a non-member. I'll say again that you haven't a clue what I've done in my 26 years, so please stop trying to pigeonhole me.
guy sajer wrote:What the hell does this refer to? I don't see the humble members in Ghana and Bolivia making these kinds of boasts.
This refers to the fact that my calling Who Knows ignorant was based on their silly little rant about not needing instruction because of their superior familiarity with it.
I think we can assume that our experiences are different and that we’ve taken different lessons from them.
To let you know where I’m coming from, I’ve gleaned/assumed from your posts that you are in your 20’s, are a student at BYU, and your church/world experience stems largely from (1) growing up in middle class US, (2) mission (probably foreign), and (3) BYU.
Note that I do not consider a mission necessarily legitimate international experience. The mental/theoretical framework imposed on missionaries is so narrow that too many are unlikely to see the world, or even consider it, outside this framework, such that the lessons out there to be learned are not learned, and the missionary comes home little more “enlightened” about the world outside Mormonism and no more empathetic for people who are different from them than they were before. There are some missionaries who can break outside this framework, but in my experience they are a minority.
In other words, I’ve assumed you are pretty well starting out in life, and you lack both experience and wider context to understand the world around you and process the information you do receive outside of the limited frameworks in which you’ve been indoctrinated. You tend to interpret events through a narrow Mormon framework and what information is received is processed to fit within this framework.
Your posts give evidence of someone who thinks well in abstract terms but who at times fails to realize that abstract theory is often quite different from “reality” and that your experience does not necessarily generalize to others. You are impatient with people who fail to demonstrate the same level of “understanding” of gospel principles as you.
I’d be very interested in knowing what your experience is to show me where and how I’m wrong.
By the way, I don’t think my sentence above made much sense either. It was late, and I was tired.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."