The Great and Abominable Church: Environmentalism

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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

bcspace wrote:Not suprising as my comparison was theological in the first place (see the bolded part). More lazy research on your part. You have trouble parsing even the most recent posts.


It appears you didn't understand the original question. My original question was 'On what basis do you draw' the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship'. You have told me that you draw it on a theological basis, but this was by no means apparent from your original post, nor was it necessarily so. I could draw the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship' on a basis which was not theological, and so could you. I understood that you believed 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship', but not why, because you didn't explain why.

This is not a matter of 'lazy research' on my part, this is a matter of me asking a simple question and you not understanding it. When I want to find out what you think about an issue, I ask you. That isn't 'lazy research', that's being practical. I can hardly Google it, can I?

Never once have you shown lazy research on my part.


Actually more than once.

However, your unwillingness to provide a single example contrary to my argument...


That is simply untrue. As I said, I gave several examples. Do you want to see them again?
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Suffice it to say that I disagree with you.

As a general rule, I prefer to go with the consensus of scientific thinking, if it can be ascertained. It may not always be correct, but I believe it will tend to be correct on average, and science has a nice self-correcting trait to it, unlike "revealed truth." If global warming is a bogus as you say, I am confident this scientific truth will emerge, but I disagree with you regarding existing preponderance of evidence.

I see no further reason to debate this with you. You are revealed as an ideologue who cannot separate his political views from his assessment of scientific evidence. Reasoned discussion is, therefore, impossible. I think we all understand where you stand and why you stand there.

I was once like you Coggins, very much like you. So I understand your point of view better than you think. And I understand all too well how it is to infuse one's world view with right wing demogoguery. I do not believe you are capable of reasoned, rational thought on this issue. We want to discuss science, and you drag us into polemics on rightest vs. leftist politics. I am not interested in competing political world views, and I do not find them helpful in understanding this issue.



Guy, do you even know what the relevant evidence is? The evidence for AGW is virtually entirely a product of computer modeling, of which there are many programs and as many ways to tweak those programs to produce the scenarios, scary or innocuous, as one wishes. The preponderance of empirical evidence, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly inconsistent with the AGW hypothesis as extrapolated from those models, and as you seem unwilling to search out and educate yourself on that aspect of the evidence, you are correct, no further discussion is possible. Continuing to pontificate (while hiding behind your own unstated ideological template) that you agree or disagree with something, while remaining steadfastly unwilling to apprise yourself of anything other than media platitudes about "consensus" on the matter is hardly compelling.


And please don't patronize me with this canard that you were "once like me". The chance that you were ever an authentic, serious conservative intellectual is roughly the same as that of Hugh Hefner having ever been a missionary.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Coggins7 wrote:And please don't patronize me with this canard that you were "once like me". The chance that you were ever an authentic, serious conservative intellectual is roughly the same as that of Hugh Hefner having ever been a missionary.


I don't think he's suggesting that he was ever an "authentic, serious conservative intellectual." What makes you think he believes that?
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

bcspace wrote:
Not suprising as my comparison was theological in the first place (see the bolded part). More lazy research on your part. You have trouble parsing even the most recent posts.



I
t appears you didn't understand the original question. My original question was 'On what basis do you draw' the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship'. You have told me that you draw it on a theological basis, but this was by no means apparent from your original post, nor was it necessarily so. I could draw the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship' on a basis which was not theological, and so could you. I understood that you believed 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship', but not why, because you didn't explain why.

This is not a matter of 'lazy research' on my part, this is a matter of me asking a simple question and you not understanding it. When I want to find out what you think about an issue, I ask you. That isn't 'lazy research', that's being practical. I can hardly Google it, can I?



You see, now Fort embarks upon the same muddled journey through his weed choked path of courtroom-like word games in which relatively clear and concise statements or descriptions are tortured until they confess that Fortigurn is brilliant and you are a a dolt. Its a game he can't lose because all he has to do, much like Scratch, is just wear you down with an endless barrage of verbal smog until you give up in disgust, at which point he declares victory by default. The fact that he appears to really believe that others here don't see through this parlor game is what's really astonishing.

Fortigurn has put forth not one iota of his own evidence, a logical argument that could be analyzed as to its cogency, or one coherent idea of his own period, regarding the main subject of this thread. Nor, for that matter, have any of the liberal opponents of mine during the entire discussion. After providing link after link and name after name, what we have are vague claims of belief in "the preponderance of evidence" and in "consensus", something derived from the mainstream media, not the professional literature. I have made a number of clear, declarative statements about that evidence and been met with ridicule, smarm, and hatred.

Not a single poster here has yet made a single, clear statement regarding what empirical evidence exists that would cause me to take AGW seriously. The closest was CaliforniaKid, who posted some propositions of belief in some major components of AGW, all of which are easily argued against by appeal to the settled and clear known facts as represented in the literature and reports to which I linked, as well as many other statements, essays, testimony before professional and governmental bodies, etc, by competent experts in the field that I could like to.

For example, if you wish to believe, for whatever reason, that there is a causal link between CO2 and global warming, or that there is a discernible human influence in the warming of the last century, or that the 30 percent increase in the atmosphere created by human activities if a minor greenhouse gas comprising less that one percent of all greenhouse gas, which happens to coincide with an utterly trivial warming of a little over half a degree centigrade in over a century, that's all well and good. But no evidence in nature exists for such a belief at this time. Therefore, why would one believe that at this time? Without evidence, what other variables would lead one to assume, beyond what nature is telling us, that something is going on for which there is no observational warrant?




_________________
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 3 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 3 (by Mr. Coffee x2) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 |

Hammer @ Feb 11 2007, 11:29 PM:
Just because it was written down by some people and there were some agreements by some, doesn't mean there really was such actual things going on.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

bcspace wrote:
Not suprising as my comparison was theological in the first place (see the bolded part). More lazy research on your part. You have trouble parsing even the most recent posts.



I
t appears you didn't understand the original question. My original question was 'On what basis do you draw' the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship'. You have told me that you draw it on a theological basis, but this was by no means apparent from your original post, nor was it necessarily so. I could draw the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship' on a basis which was not theological, and so could you. I understood that you believed 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship', but not why, because you didn't explain why.

This is not a matter of 'lazy research' on my part, this is a matter of me asking a simple question and you not understanding it. When I want to find out what you think about an issue, I ask you. That isn't 'lazy research', that's being practical. I can hardly Google it, can I?



You see, now Fort embarks upon the same muddled journey through his weed choked path of courtroom-like word games in which relatively clear and concise statements or descriptions are tortured until they confess that Fortigurn is brilliant and you are a a dolt. Its a game he can't lose because all he has to do, much like Scratch, is just wear you down with an endless barrage of verbal smog until you give up in disgust, at which point he declares victory by default. The fact that he appears to really believe that others here don't see through this parlor game is what's really astonishing.

Fortigurn has put forth not one iota of his own evidence, a logical argument that could be analyzed as to its cogency, or one coherent idea of his own period, regarding the main subject of this thread. Nor, for that matter, have any of the liberal opponents of mine during the entire discussion. After providing link after link and name after name, what we have are vague claims of belief in "the preponderance of evidence" and in "consensus", something derived from the mainstream media, not the professional literature. I have made a number of clear, declarative statements about that evidence and been met with ridicule, smarm, and hatred.

Not a single poster here has yet made a single, clear statement regarding what empirical evidence exists that would cause me to take AGW seriously. The closest was CaliforniaKid, who posted some propositions of belief in some major components of AGW, all of which are easily argued against by appeal to the settled and clear known facts as represented in the literature and reports to which I linked, as well as many other statements, essays, testimony before professional and governmental bodies, etc, by competent experts in the field that I could like to.

For example, if you wish to believe, for whatever reason, that there is a causal link between CO2 and global warming, or that there is a discernible human influence in the warming of the last century, or that the 30 percent increase in the atmosphere created by human activities if a minor greenhouse gas comprising less that one percent of all greenhouse gas, which happens to coincide with an utterly trivial warming of a little over half a degree centigrade in over a century, that's all well and good. But no evidence in nature exists for such a belief at this time. Therefore, why would one believe that at this time? Without evidence, what other variables would lead one to assume, beyond what nature is telling us, that something is going on for which there is no observational warrant?




_
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Coggins7 wrote:Fortigurn has put forth not one iota of his own evidence, a logical argument that could be analyzed as to its cogency, or one coherent idea of his own period, regarding the main subject of this thread. Nor, for that matter, have any of the liberal opponents of mine during the entire discussion. After providing link after link and name after name, what we have are vague claims of belief in "the preponderance of evidence" and in "consensus", something derived from the mainstream media, not the professional literature. I have made a number of clear, declarative statements about that evidence and been met with ridicule, smarm, and hatred.

Not a single poster here has yet made a single, clear statement regarding what empirical evidence exists that would cause me to take AGW seriously. The closest was CaliforniaKid, who posted some propositions of belief in some major components of AGW, all of which are easily argued against by appeal to the settled and clear known facts as represented in the literature and reports to which I linked, as well as many other statements, essays, testimony before professional and governmental bodies, etc, by competent experts in the field that I could like to.

For example, if you wish to believe, for whatever reason, that there is a causal link between CO2 and global warming, or that there is a discernible human influence in the warming of the last century, or that the 30 percent increase in the atmosphere created by human activities if a minor greenhouse gas comprising less that one percent of all greenhouse gas, which happens to coincide with an utterly trivial warming of a little over half a degree centigrade in over a century, that's all well and good. But no evidence in nature exists for such a belief at this time. Therefore, why would one believe that at this time? Without evidence, what other variables would lead one to assume, beyond what nature is telling us, that something is going on for which there is no observational warrant?

_


I've stayed out of this thread, mostly because I don't have an opinion in the matter. But I do find it fascinating that you have thus far refused to respond to Fort's simple request for an explanation of how you evaluate the evidence. Instead, what I have seen from you are a lot of personal attacks on people's intellectual and spiritual capabilities. Bad form, really.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Coggins7 wrote:
Suffice it to say that I disagree with you.

As a general rule, I prefer to go with the consensus of scientific thinking, if it can be ascertained. It may not always be correct, but I believe it will tend to be correct on average, and science has a nice self-correcting trait to it, unlike "revealed truth." If global warming is a bogus as you say, I am confident this scientific truth will emerge, but I disagree with you regarding existing preponderance of evidence.

I see no further reason to debate this with you. You are revealed as an ideologue who cannot separate his political views from his assessment of scientific evidence. Reasoned discussion is, therefore, impossible. I think we all understand where you stand and why you stand there.

I was once like you Coggins, very much like you. So I understand your point of view better than you think. And I understand all too well how it is to infuse one's world view with right wing demogoguery. I do not believe you are capable of reasoned, rational thought on this issue. We want to discuss science, and you drag us into polemics on rightest vs. leftist politics. I am not interested in competing political world views, and I do not find them helpful in understanding this issue.



Guy, do you even know what the relevant evidence is? The evidence for AGW is virtually entirely a product of computer modeling, of which there are many programs and as many ways to tweak those programs to produce the scenarios, scary or innocuous, as one wishes. The preponderance of empirical evidence, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly inconsistent with the AGW hypothesis as extrapolated from those models, and as you seem unwilling to search out and educate yourself on that aspect of the evidence, you are correct, no further discussion is possible. Continuing to pontificate (while hiding behind your own unstated ideological template) that you agree or disagree with something, while remaining steadfastly unwilling to apprise yourself of anything other than media platitudes about "consensus" on the matter is hardly compelling.


And please don't patronize me with this canard that you were "once like me". The chance that you were ever an authentic, serious conservative intellectual is roughly the same as that of Hugh Hefner having ever been a missionary.


I'm not claiming to have been an "authentic, serious, conservative intellectual," rather I am saying that I was a reactionary, superficial, unreflective, knee-jerk radical right winger. . . you know, just like you.

I care not what you think of me. I'm confident that I have the respect of people who actually mean something to me, and with a large body of published works to my name, I'm confident that I've established my credentials as a serious thinker, unlike others, such as you, who can only point to verbose polemics on internet discussion boards as their contribution to human knowledge.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Not suprising as my comparison was theological in the first place (see the bolded part). More lazy research on your part. You have trouble parsing even the most recent posts.

It appears you didn't understand the original question. My original question was 'On what basis do you draw' the conclusion that 'environmentalism is a counterfeit to the doctrine of Stewardship'.


Indeed. It remains a theological question.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:Since you seem to have both a reading comprehension problem

I concede that I probably do. However, I am certainly open to clarification from a third party as we are at an impass.
as well as a severe difficulty processing information logically

I disagree strongly with that notion. I would not have the job I do if were not adept at processing information logically (and indeed creatively).
, our discussion is over.

Yes, but that's because neither of us are able to communicate with the other at all.
Your inability to comprehend and follow the nuances of my argument (which really aren't that subtle)

I follow them. You're saying that environmentalism is really being orchistrated by satan to get he political left and the shambles of communism into power. Is McCarthy your hero or somthing?
and force words into my mouth and meanings into my arguments that are not there, either inferentially or conceptually,

But they are there inferentially. I grant that you didn't intend for the inferences and you didn't see them. If you could, you'd know how silly your ideas are and would never have stated them in the first place--at least not the contradictions.
indicates either an unwillingness to engage in serious, critical thought, or an inability to do so.

I'm more than willing to engage with a reasonable person like say bcspace. He would actually be able to clarify his thoughts to the point where he doesn't leave a blatent contradiction sitting there. Besides, I actually agree with much of what bcspace says. It's your looney conspiracy theories I'm arguing against now. Wasn't conspiracy the point of this thread? I'd love to engage in serious science except that I am unqualified to do so. My stance has more to do with being a wise steward instead of being careless and wasteful. I am not against using resources, but none of that has to do with the conspiracy theory topic of this thread.
I'm not going any farther with the abortion question because its quite obviously well over your head, as is the history and philosophy of the leftism and environmentalism, one of its primary manifestations.

The only reason you think it's over my head is because you view the world upside down. Try pulling your head out of your rear. It'll help.
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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Runtu wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:Fortigurn has put forth not one iota of his own evidence, a logical argument that could be analyzed as to its cogency, or one coherent idea of his own period, regarding the main subject of this thread. Nor, for that matter, have any of the liberal opponents of mine during the entire discussion. After providing link after link and name after name, what we have are vague claims of belief in "the preponderance of evidence" and in "consensus", something derived from the mainstream media, not the professional literature. I have made a number of clear, declarative statements about that evidence and been met with ridicule, smarm, and hatred.

Not a single poster here has yet made a single, clear statement regarding what empirical evidence exists that would cause me to take AGW seriously. The closest was CaliforniaKid, who posted some propositions of belief in some major components of AGW, all of which are easily argued against by appeal to the settled and clear known facts as represented in the literature and reports to which I linked, as well as many other statements, essays, testimony before professional and governmental bodies, etc, by competent experts in the field that I could like to.

For example, if you wish to believe, for whatever reason, that there is a causal link between CO2 and global warming, or that there is a discernible human influence in the warming of the last century, or that the 30 percent increase in the atmosphere created by human activities if a minor greenhouse gas comprising less that one percent of all greenhouse gas, which happens to coincide with an utterly trivial warming of a little over half a degree centigrade in over a century, that's all well and good. But no evidence in nature exists for such a belief at this time. Therefore, why would one believe that at this time? Without evidence, what other variables would lead one to assume, beyond what nature is telling us, that something is going on for which there is no observational warrant?

_


I've stayed out of this thread, mostly because I don't have an opinion in the matter. But I do find it fascinating that you have thus far refused to respond to Fort's simple request for an explanation of how you evaluate the evidence. Instead, what I have seen from you are a lot of personal attacks on people's intellectual and spiritual capabilities. Bad form, really.


Loran has already admitted that his evaluation of the evidence is driven entirely by his Right-Wing ideology.
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