Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

[_ldsguy]

To this day, I'm still blown away by what I've come to learn about how many people are treated when they leave the church. I'd like to think that members of the church would know better, what with efforts to live the gospel of Christ and all. There is a definite disconnect with the way I feel about people who leave the church, and how people who leave the church say they are treated. My brother left the church around the time I was on my mission. I was sad, but at no time did I think of him as evil. Then he told us one day that he's the same guy, not an evil version on the brother we knew. I wondered who had made him feel he was evil. I don't THINK it was me. But I was reading through some mission letters the other day, and found that, as a 19-year old missionary, I was a little bit naïve. Big Surprise. I thought he was making a huge mistake, sacrificing his salvation and what not. I had written to him, too, and I've been wondering if I helped contribute to any negative experience he might have had, without realizing it.

The talks cited in the first post can clearly be taken to mean exactly what the OP said, which produces some anger and resentment. However, I can tell you that what I get out of it is insight into the nature of sin, why to avoid it, and maybe even how to avoid it, all for my own personal insight and benefit. I, personally, would NEVER read that and think, "So, now I understand that ex-mormons are evil. I should find one and let him know!" Someone else may read something inbetween, not being encouraged to avoid sin, but feeling threatened into it, which produces shame, depression, etc.. Every person is different I guess.

[_Runtu]

To this day, I'm still blown away by what I've come to learn about how many people are treated when they leave the church. I'd like to think that members of the church would know better, what with efforts to live the gospel of Christ and all. There is a definite disconnect with the way I feel about people who leave the church, and how people who leave the church say they are treated. My brother left the church around the time I was on my mission. I was sad, but at no time did I think of him as evil. Then he told us one day that he's the same guy, not an evil version on the brother we knew. I wondered who had made him feel he was evil. I don't THINK it was me. But I was reading through some mission letters the other day, and found that, as a 19-year old missionary, I was a little bit naïve. Big Surprise. I thought he was making a huge mistake, sacrificing his salvation and what not. I had written to him, too, and I've been wondering if I helped contribute to any negative experience he might have had, without realizing it.

The talks cited in the first post can clearly be taken to mean exactly what the OP said, which produces some anger and resentment. However, I can tell you that what I get out of it is insight into the nature of sin, why to avoid it, and maybe even how to avoid it, all for my own personal insight and benefit. I, personally, would NEVER read that and think, "So, now I understand that ex-mormons are evil. I should find one and let him know!" Someone else may read something inbetween, not being encouraged to avoid sin, but feeling threatened into it, which produces shame, depression, etc.. Every person is different I guess.

Thanks for posting a compassionate and thoughtful post. It helps to know that at least one person has seen fit to try and put himself in our shoes.

[_asbestosman]

My mother was kicked out of the home by her parents when she joined the church.

Yes, I agree that kicking children out of the home over apostasy is a bit much. While I also think that divorce over apostasy is sad, I think there may be some circumstances where it is the right thing. If no children have are at home, it might be better than staying in a relationship where you can't be intimate about deepest feelings. I'm not saying people can never work it out, but maybe sometimes it can't be. Furthermore, if there are no children yet, it may be better to divorce than to bring children into such a strained home. If children are already at home, I think a lot more effort needs to be made for their sakes. Divorce is especially hard for children even though it is rough on adults too.

[_gramps]

Sometimes, I think I have it bad with my family, since leaving the church.

Then, I think of sono_hito. Wow, unbelievable. I have to thank my lucky stars.

Payson, in the middle of winter, on your birthday, no less?

I feel for ya, bro. It's great to hear that you are in the process, healthily, of recovering from that nightmare. Keep it up!

[_Runtu]

My mother was kicked out of the home by her parents when she joined the church.

As I said, one of my ancestors was disowned and kicked out of her home at age 11(!) for joining the church. So intolerance runs both ways.

Yes, I agree that kicking children out of the home over apostasy is a bit much. While I also think that divorce over apostasy is sad, I think there may be some circumstances where it is the right thing. If no children have are at home, it might be better than staying in a relationship where you can't be intimate about deepest feelings. I'm not saying people can never work it out, but maybe sometimes it can't be. Furthermore, if there are no children yet, it may be better to divorce than to bring children into such a strained home. If children are already at home, I think a lot more effort needs to be made for their sakes. Divorce is especially hard for children even though it is rough on adults too.

I agree with you here, asbestosman. We came very close to divorce, truth be told, but our marriage is pretty strong these days.

[_Who Knows]

While I also think that divorce over apostasy is sad, I think there may be some circumstances where it is the right thing. If no children have are at home, it might be better than staying in a relationship where you can't be intimate about deepest feelings. I'm not saying people can never work it out, but maybe sometimes it can't be. Furthermore, if there are no children yet, it may be better to divorce than to bring children into such a strained home. If children are already at home, I think a lot more effort needs to be made for their sakes. Divorce is especially hard for children even though it is rough on adults too.

If divorce is the right thing to do over apostacy, it would have been the right thing to do anyways (in my opinion).

Initially, as I gradually left the church, my wife questioned the reason for our marriage and the D word was brought up. Luckily, she snapped out of it, and our marriage is better than ever. It could have something to do with the fact that she doesn't really believe in the LDS church any more as well. ;)

She still goes for social purposes, but that's about it. Luckily we had kids, or she might have taken your advice ABMan.

[_maklelan]

Here's an article that was posted on MADB:

MOSES LAKE, Wash. (AP) - A teacher who has been suspended since January, apparently for a derogatory crack about a Mormon-run university, was carried out of Moses Lake High School after "initiating a riot," officials said.

Four school personnel carried Samson "Sam" Lyman, a science teacher, out of the building by his arms and legs Wednesday after he burst through the cafeteria doors and began yelling that he had been treated unfairly, peppering his language with obscenities, Principal Dave Balcom said.

"When (school officials) approached him, he jumped on a chair and started initiating a riot in our school commons," Principal Dave Balcom said. "Unfortunately it led to us having to remove him."

Outside the building Lyman was met by a police officer who escorted him off campus. Prosecutors will decide whether to charge him with second-degree criminal trespassing and disorderly conduct, police Capt. James Jenkins said.
...
In an article published in the local newspaper, the Columbia Basin Herald, the same day as the eviction, Lyman said he was suspended Jan. 30 following student complaints, at least some about a remark he said made about Brigham Young University, school he attended which is run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint.s

"I told a joke about BYU. I called them Breed 'em Young University," he said. "I acknowledge I said that. I didn't say it to be offensive to the Mormon faith ... I sure do (regret it). I've never been out to hurt anybody's feelings."
...
Lyman said 79 of students were interviewed over a three-day period in which the number of complaints grew from four to 24 and then was reduced to only a few.

"I think it's a form of religious discrimination against me as an ex-Mormon," he said . "I feel I've been tried and convicted in this community. I will never know who made these false comments."

Is this the same thing y'all or talking about? Is this guy just a victim of a machine that apparently runs an entire town in Washington?

[_Runtu]

Is this the same thing y'all or talking about? Is this guy just a victim of a machine that apparently runs an entire town in Washington?

Goodness, Mak. No one is saying that we're all angels, but why would you associate one guy's going off with our experience?

[_asbestosman]

She still goes for social purposes, but that's about it. Luckily we had kids, or she might have taken your advice ABMan.

In general I would prefer to have couples work it out (although I hope that doesn't mean the TBM spouse needs to be less believing). I think I could do so with my wife if she were to leave the church. However, I really do think that divorce is better than bringing kids into a strained home. Does apostasy always lead to such a strained situation? I don't know, but bringing kids in to such a home seems unfair to them (I think it's also unfair to bring kids into a home that lives in poverty or serious congenital defects, but I wouldn't dream of sterilizing the parents over it). As for divorce after kids have left, I don't see it as a very good option there (I never really do except as a guard against spreading misery through creating children in an unstable situation). However, it may end up bringing more peace to both.

Where we almost certainly agree is that divorce should not be automatic nor even a threat to keep apostates in line. I consider that line of reasoning to be manipulative and wrong.

[_maklelan]

Is this the same thing y'all or talking about? Is this guy just a victim of a machine that apparently runs an entire town in Washington?

Goodness, Mak. No one is saying that we're all angels, but why would you associate one guy's going off with our experience?

The general feeling I get from the crowd is that the church membership is trained to do the things that y'all are describing. You take your experiences and toss the blanket of responsibility for the reactions of a few members over the church leadership. Descartes said that it's possible to derive an effect from a cause but it's impossible to derive a cause from an effect. You all experience the kind of discrimination that is specifically condemned by the church (the effect) and attempt to distill it down to church leadership as the cause. I see the same cause being claimed by the guy in the article. What makes you guys right and him wrong?