TBMs and MMM

[_The Nehor]

Nehor,

Your replies here indicate you are answering a different question than the one I asked. I did not ask if you believe the killers were doing God's will, nor did I ask if they really were doing God's will. I asked if, in your opinion, the killers believed they were doing God's will.

People don't conjure up false gods to appease their conscience and say, hey, I've conjured up a false god to appease my conscience! I know this isn't the real god. I know I'm not doing God's will.

They actually believe the "God" they have conjured up is the real God, and they are doing God's will. Otherwise, none of what you are saying makes any sense.

I'm trying to show the mindset where someone can believe and not believe they are following God. They do and they don't believe they are following God. In essence, they are lying to themselves to the point where they superficially believe it but examination without the pride they've built up to cushion themselves. At some point they lied to themselves and kept doing it.

[_beastie]

I'm trying to show the mindset where someone can believe and not believe they are following God. They do and they don't believe they are following God. In essence, they are lying to themselves to the point where they superficially believe it but examination without the pride they've built up to cushion themselves. At some point they lied to themselves and kept doing it.

So why would this appease their conscience, if the belief is only superficial, and they really know aren't following the real God?

[_The Nehor]

I'm trying to show the mindset where someone can believe and not believe they are following God. They do and they don't believe they are following God. In essence, they are lying to themselves to the point where they superficially believe it but examination without the pride they've built up to cushion themselves. At some point they lied to themselves and kept doing it.

So why would this appease their conscience, if the belief is only superficial, and they really know aren't following the real God?

Where did you get this idea that people act logically? Has no one else noticed how quickly the human mind can latch onto any premise that will ease their conscience or justify their actions no matter how absurd it is. Sexual predators convince themselves they are normal and harmless. Genocidal leaders insist that 'history seized them by the throat' when what they mean is 'I saw what I wanted and took it'. Shoplifters are convinced they are fighting an unjust system and are heroes. Do you think when people first hear these excuses they believe them? I doubt it. The predator lusted, the leader wanted power first to control and the shoplifter originally stole so they could have what they wanted and still pay their rent. Later the excuses dull the mind of the individual until they make themselves stupid enough to believe it.

[_beastie]

Where did you get this idea that people act logically? Has no one else noticed how quickly the human mind can latch onto any premise that will ease their conscience or justify their actions no matter how absurd it is. Sexual predators convince themselves they are normal and harmless. Genocidal leaders insist that 'history seized them by the throat' when what they mean is 'I saw what I wanted and took it'. Shoplifters are convinced they are fighting an unjust system and are heroes. Do you think when people first hear these excuses they believe them? I doubt it. The predator lusted, the leader wanted power first to control and the shoplifter originally stole so they could have what they wanted and still pay their rent. Later the excuses dull the mind of the individual until they make themselves stupid enough to believe it.

What does logic have to do with this?

If people are knowingly lying to themselves, the lie doesn't appease their conscience because they know it's a lie.

You say that these people conjured up a false god, but didn't really believe what they conjured up. So how would it appease their conscience?

[_Inconceivable]

Regardless of the murderers' motives and justification, their souls are corrupted.

It was pure evil.

[_The Nehor]

Where did you get this idea that people act logically? Has no one else noticed how quickly the human mind can latch onto any premise that will ease their conscience or justify their actions no matter how absurd it is. Sexual predators convince themselves they are normal and harmless. Genocidal leaders insist that 'history seized them by the throat' when what they mean is 'I saw what I wanted and took it'. Shoplifters are convinced they are fighting an unjust system and are heroes. Do you think when people first hear these excuses they believe them? I doubt it. The predator lusted, the leader wanted power first to control and the shoplifter originally stole so they could have what they wanted and still pay their rent. Later the excuses dull the mind of the individual until they make themselves stupid enough to believe it.

What does logic have to do with this?

If people are knowingly lying to themselves, the lie doesn't appease their conscience because they know it's a lie.

You say that these people conjured up a false god, but didn't really believe what they conjured up. So how would it appease their conscience?

Have you never repeated a lie to yourself so often that you believe it? Now waiting for inevitable attacks on my belief in my faith :)

[_beastie]

Have you never repeated a lie to yourself so often that you believe it? Now waiting for inevitable attacks on my belief in my faith :)

No, attacks on your belief aren't inevitable, but pointing out that you're being inconsistent is.

Look, either the perps believed in their lie or they didn't. You seem to be making both claims.

[_The Nehor]

Have you never repeated a lie to yourself so often that you believe it? Now waiting for inevitable attacks on my belief in my faith :)

No, attacks on your belief aren't inevitable, but pointing out that you're being inconsistent is.

Look, either the perps believed in their lie or they didn't. You seem to be making both claims.

I'm saying that these people might just be inconsistent.

I don't think I'm being clear.

Imagine two adolescent girls, A and B. A has a secret and wants to tell B. B can't keep a secret to save her life and everyone knows that. A desperately wants to tell B and drops a hint that she has a secret. B bugs her about it. Finally A convinces herself that maybe this time B won't do it.....but she really knows B will blab. A tells the secret, B blabs it.

So what is A's mindset? She knows that B can't be trusted. She wants so badly to trust B (for selfish reasons, really) that she lies to herself until she believes it.

A more serious case is women who repeatedly return to their abusers lying to themselves that this time it will be different when they know it won't.

Couldn't a man do this with God? He badly wants vengeance on a party passing through. He wants to kill them. He knows (if he's been reading the Book of Commandment, Book of Mormon, and Bible) that vengeance is Gods to mete out. However the crimes that he imagines these people to be behind are so vile that any just God wouldn't mind him killing them (think kneejerk reaction to child molestors today). The conflict plays out within him. He convinces himself that God wants them dead and decides to do 'God' a favor and wipe them out. So he does. He's being inconsistent. He is also being human. He lets his desires run rampant and dishonestly ascribes those feelings to God justifying him in acting on them.

[_Sethbag]

Nehor, the inevitable attack on your faith is coming. You knew it, you forsaw it, and I will do you the favor and provide it.

The ability for a person to rationalize enough to themselves until they actually convince themselves and believe it describes exactly about 90% of Mormon apologetics, give or take 10%. Think about it. Joseph Smith "translates" an Egyptian pagan funeral spellbook into the Book of Abraham, the church defends this translation as literal right up until the papyrus is found again and translated by competent scholars. It's not the Book of Abraham. Suddenly it's all about parallels between topics touched upon in the Book of Abraham with things that can arguably be stretched into be somewhat, kinda sorta similar in some smorgasbord of ancient middle eastern religions, and that's "evidence" that the Book of Abraham really is true after all. Surely you can see how retarded the whole family of arguments in favor of the Book of Abraham are, and yet people talk themselves into believing the apologetics.

Same thing with Joseph Smith's polyandry and other topics. What in reality was Joseph Smith getting naked with other mens' wives behind his own wife's back turns into mere "dynastic ties", or else Joseph Smith really was reluctant and only did it because it was God's command, or other such rubbish. And people talk themselves into believing these defenses. Sure you have seen this as much as the rest of us, only until now you've convinced yourself that some spiritual experiences you've had somehow Trump reality enough to justify your continued belief. And you've explained exactly how this mechanism works in your previous several posts in this thread.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor, the inevitable attack on your faith is coming. You knew it, you forsaw it, and I will do you the favor and provide it.

The ability for a person to rationalize enough to themselves until they actually convince themselves and believe it describes exactly about 90% of Mormon apologetics, give or take 10%. Think about it. Joseph Smith "translates" an Egyptian pagan funeral spellbook into the Book of Abraham, the church defends this translation as literal right up until the papyrus is found again and translated by competent scholars. It's not the Book of Abraham. Suddenly it's all about parallels between topics touched upon in the Book of Abraham with things that can arguably be stretched into be somewhat, kinda sorta similar in some smorgasbord of ancient middle eastern religions, and that's "evidence" that the Book of Abraham really is true after all. Surely you can see how retarded the whole family of arguments in favor of the Book of Abraham are, and yet people talk themselves into believing the apologetics.

Same thing with Joseph Smith's polyandry and other topics. What in reality was Joseph Smith getting naked with other mens' wives behind his own wife's back turns into mere "dynastic ties", or else Joseph Smith really was reluctant and only did it because it was God's command, or other such rubbish. And people talk themselves into believing these defenses. Sure you have seen this as much as the rest of us, only until now you've convinced yourself that some spiritual experiences you've had somehow Trump reality enough to justify your continued belief. And you've explained exactly how this mechanism works in your previous several posts in this thread.

The process I have described is how to rationalize evil using God as an excuse.

That is not what I am doing. I'm of the belief that the Abraham scroll is still missing. Polygamy? I have no idea. Trump reality? Book of Abraham disputes and arguments about men and women long dead who can't defend themselves SHOULD be trumped by first-hand knowledge.

There are many things I dislike about the Gospel and the Church and the temptation to cut the ties I've formed has always been strong. I tried to leave it all behind several years ago. He brought me back. He wouldn't let me forget what he had shown me. I think the procedure I have laid out can't apply to me. Too much of me would rather walk away for me to be convinced that I'm 'dreaming' up excuses to stay.