Why react so strongly to Dr. Daniel C. Peterson?

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_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

DonBradley wrote:Hi Jersey Gal,

As editor of The FARMS Review, DCP is the most visible and prominent FARMS writer. So, yes, he comes to symbolize, and epitomize, FARMS as a whole.

However, I think there are deeper, more specific reasons for his service as a human lightning rod.

First, he is a very effective rhetorician. While Dr. Peterson is certainly capable of, and does, academic scholarship, he is often, online and among friends such as readers of the FARMS Review, not in academic mode, but in more of a light-hearted debate mode. He positively excels at this. He can win conisderable rhetorical ground without appealing to evidence at all, by virtue of his razor sharp wit. This delights and entertains most of his fellow believers, but maddens many critics. Critics want their arguments taken seriously and weighed on their merits. But DCP often doesn't grant them this. He tends to not spend his time on Internet boards discussing detailed evidence or the logical structure of arguments. Rather, he whimsically plays with his discussion "opponents," and, as the superior rhetorician, usually makes their position look foolish or laughable (at least to those who share his basic belief premises).

Second, while Dr. Peterson intends his humorous responses to be "piquant"--pleasingly pungent or provocative, they often come across to critics as noxiously and malevolently pungent and provocative. In face-to-face discussion, everything about Daniel Peterson communicates amiability and emotional lightness. But shorn of these nonverbals, his jokes come across to many who don't know him, and are the butt of said jokes, as personally dismissive, angry, and even bellicose.

I've not made a secret of my personal distaste for rhetoric that is so easily misunderstood, and therefore inadvertantly inflammatory. But I disdain the tendency to defame Professor Peterson and mock him in the most crass of ways. While I, personally, would prefer to see Dr. Peterson tone down and clarify some of his writing, I think it is very misguided to attack him as though he were Mephistopheles. At best, he's a mischievous imp. ;)

Dr. Peterson's critics take his rhetoric far more seriously than he does. A useful metaphor for understanding his piquant humor was provided by his own self-description. Daniel Peterson has, if I remember right, acknowledged having grown up as a frequent class clown. While he was no doubt a high-performing student, he was also a cut-up. And he still is. While an erudite scholar in his own right, he frequently plays the class clown to those who would act as his critical "teachers."

The stakes are now higher than in class, and more intense feelings are involved--so, to repeat, I'd prefer that he use greater circumspection in his writing. But I think those who take him with such godawful seriousness are badly misguided. This guy isn't Josef Goebbels, folks. He's Hugh Nibley meets Fletch.

Don


He tends to avoid long and involved discussions, and looks for the easy marks. He likes to look for the unexamined assumptions that everyone has, but more particularly those who lack humility. He also has a wonderful economy of words and wit that I enjoy, even when I'm on the receiving end. He just makes me laugh and try harder.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Dan Vogel wrote:He tends to avoid long and involved discussions, and looks for the easy marks. He likes to look for the unexamined assumptions that everyone has, but more particularly those who lack humility. He also has a wonderful economy of words and wit that I enjoy, even when I'm on the receiving end. He just makes me laugh and try harder.


Good grief. Are we even talking about the same guy? I certainly don't recognize the Daniel who threw a hissy fit on ZLMB if I was allowed to post and the "wonderful economy of words and wit" that you describe. Makes me wonder if we're even talking the same guy.
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Runtu wrote:I've never had any issues with Dr. Peterson, other than his (thus-far) refusal to apologize for calling me a liar. I'm a little mystified as to why he hasn't even responded to my email. But, no, I don't think he's a bad guy or an idiot. I kind of like his sense of humor in a twisted way.


Good. Because it's not worth getting worked up about. It's not like you need his permission to believe and think what you want. I think people dislike him out of frustration, because he tries to make them look bad. And no one wants to look bad. But this usually happens when someone overstates their case to begin with, which makes it difficult for them to back down. And that's where he gets them. With each round, he tightens his grip. It's very painful to watch. Then, he decapitates them, puts their head on a pole, and then parades through the community making jokes to the delight of his jr. apologists. But there are ways of avoiding that.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

DonBradley wrote:by the way, I doubt that he has any intention of becoming "chief apologist." If there is such a person at present, it is FARMS founder John W. Welch, who is probably also FARMS' most prolific author. And, for what it's worth, Welch's apologetic/writing style is quite academic and difficult to take offense at.


in my opinion, DCP is chief apologist whether he wants the title or not. He's more visible, recognizable, and accessible, by far, than any of the other senior apologists.

If you were to hold a poll, I'm positive that many, many more people would recognize the name "Daniel C. Peterson" than "John W. Welch."
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Dan Vogel wrote:Good. Because it's not worth getting worked up about. It's not like you need his permission to believe and think what you want. I think people dislike him out of frustration, because he tries to make them look bad. And no one wants to look bad. But this usually happens when someone overstates their case to begin with, which makes it difficult for them to back down. And that's where he gets them. With each round, he tightens his grip. It's very painful to watch. Then, he decapitates them, puts their head on a pole, and then parades through the community making jokes to the delight of his jr. apologists. But there are ways of avoiding that.


He's never gotten me worked up about anything. I had wanted to engage him in my thread about Book of Mormon Evidence, as he was the one who recommended Clark's article to me, but oh, well. I don't ask his permission to post what I want, and he's under no obligation to respond. I don't see him as the ogre some people do. I do think that when he "decapitates" opponents in the way you describe (and that's exactly how I see it), he sometimes crosses the line into cruelty. It's quite easy to forget that there are actual people on the receiving end of such treatment. I've done the same kind of thing myself, so I'm not exactly one to criticize him for it.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Dan Vogel wrote: I think people dislike him out of frustration, because he tries to make them look bad. And no one wants to look bad.


He uses his position to belittle people he deems are his inferiors. He rarely engages an argument, instead focusing on the person. When he's backed into a corner, he whines to the mods that he's going to leave if they don't stop his opponent. Who exactly is he making look bad? Himself or the LDS church?

But this usually happens when someone overstates their case to begin with, which makes it difficult for them to back down. And that's where he gets them. With each round, he tightens his grip. It's very painful to watch. Then, he decapitates them, puts their head on a pole, and then parades through the community making jokes to the delight of his jr. apologists.


And this is the person who is epitomizing the LDS church to the public? This is the behavior of our chief apologist? This is the kind of thing someone does who actually lives this gospel? Holy smokes, we do indeed have a different idea of appropriate behavior by the Lord's employees.

But there are ways of avoiding that.


Yes. Avoid MAD. Hope to heaven he never comes here. Count our lucky stars he has vowed to never post here.
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Dan Vogel wrote:Good. Because it's not worth getting worked up about. It's not like you need his permission to believe and think what you want. I think people dislike him out of frustration, because he tries to make them look bad. And no one wants to look bad. But this usually happens when someone overstates their case to begin with, which makes it difficult for them to back down. And that's where he gets them. With each round, he tightens his grip. It's very painful to watch. Then, he decapitates them, puts their head on a pole, and then parades through the community making jokes to the delight of his jr. apologists. But there are ways of avoiding that.


lol. Lovely image.

By the way, your comment about FARMS' attempt to ruin Tom Murphy's career is now in his signature line.
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

harmony wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:He tends to avoid long and involved discussions, and looks for the easy marks. He likes to look for the unexamined assumptions that everyone has, but more particularly those who lack humility. He also has a wonderful economy of words and wit that I enjoy, even when I'm on the receiving end. He just makes me laugh and try harder.


Good grief. Are we even talking about the same guy? I certainly don't recognize the Daniel who threw a hissy fit on ZLMB if I was allowed to post and the "wonderful economy of words and wit" that you describe. Makes me wonder if we're even talking the same guy.


I understand you have a history with DCP, and see him through your own eyes. My eyes are different than yours. No one is the same person to everyone. And no person acts in a vacuum, but in reaction with other people. My experience with Dan is closer to Don's than yours. I was giving a generalized impression based on my three years on the FAIR/MAD boards. I wouldn't judge Dan based on isolated examples any more than you would want others to judge you based on a select set of posts. I'm not defending his bad behavior, which is largely a result of his being over-zealous to defend his faith, but I think he deserves to be viewed on balance. If you demonize him, you don't have to take partial responsibility for the breakdown in communications, or listen any more, or give a better response. All you have to do is keep looking for justification for your hatred of him, which will further distort your perceptions. And that game can be played by either side, at any time, with anyone.

Why do you think DCP harps on how posters here and on the Recovery board demonize him? Because every time he does it, he increases in stature with his audience and it makes his critics sound like fools. Really! The more you attack him, the more you demonize him, the more extreme and unreasonable you sound, the less he has to take you or any or your arguments seriously. You are actually helping him.

This is the same point I made on the Recovery Board a while back, when I said the more they attacked me as a Joseph Smith apologists because of my pious fraud thesis, the more they made me look moderate and reasonable and themselves as extremists with an agenda. Think about it.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

DonBradley wrote:My only suggestion, really, would be to keep things light--to recognize that DCP doesn't take his own snide and pungent remarks seriously, and that it achieves little good for others to do so. If Dan Peterson wants to use his wit to get the upper hand in discussion and debate, he should be engaged on that same ground, and given a run for his money by critics of similar wit. His scholarly work should be assessed on its own merits, and responded to accordingly. Beyond that, he should be left alone.


When I've used my wit to engage Peterson on the same ground, the moderators at MAD haven't seen it that way. So I leave him alone and to remind myself, I have him on ignore. Bill Hamblin too. I would love to engage them with my wit, but the MADmods won't have it.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

The Dude wrote:When I've used my wit to engage Peterson on the same ground, the moderators at MAD haven't seen it that way. So I leave him alone and to remind myself, I have him on ignore. Bill Hamblin too. I would love to engage them with my wit, but the MADmods won't have it.


Probably the best thing about the recent Gee/Graham falderal is that the mods over there explicitly stated that MA&D is not a level playing field. Critics are not given the same leeway as apologists. People who believe that the rules should apply equally tend not to last long.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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