The Real Reason I Left

[_Runtu]

Evidently, President Kimball placed a much greater importance on virtue and chastity than you and the feminized world you grew up in. That doesn't make his position unreasonable. It just makes it different from your own. I trust that you can handle diversity. ;-)

Where did you come up with that? Blixa said that most people back then understood the difference between being raped and losing one's virtue. She said nothing about the importance of virtue or chastity.

And, if one is intent on determining which of the diverse levels of importance may be most advantageous for society, one may wish to check the legacy of each in terms of rates of out-of-wedlock pregnancies and infidelity, etc. I don't know about you, but I am inclined to put my money on Pres. Kimball over the feminist movement--but that may be because the importance I place on virtue and chastity may be more in line with Pres. Kimball.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What does this paragraph have to do with people feeling like they have lost their virtue because they were raped?

[_Mr. Coffee]

Evidently, President Kimball placed a much greater importance on virtue and chastity than you and the feminized world you grew up in. That doesn't make his position unreasonable. It just makes it different from your own.

That Kimball places the value of "virtue" and "chastity" over lives and safety is unreasonable. That sort of retarded thinking is the same that sunbaked hajji's in Iran use when they hang a woman who's been raped or was alone with a man. It's unreasonable, unjustifiable, and morally repugnant.

I trust that you can handle diversity. ;-)

And, if one is intent on determining which of the diverse levels of importance may be most advantageous for society, one may wish to check the legacy of each in terms of rates of out-of-wedlock pregnancies and infidelity, etc.

Kindly tell me what in the hell infidelity has to do with being raped? Also, getting pregnant because someone raped you is NOT the same as getting pregnant because you make the concious decision to have sex, Wenglend. The first thing that should have clued you in to that is that they don't include rape in with out-of-wedlock pregnancy statistics.

I don't know about you, but I am inclined to put my money on Pres. Kimball over the feminist movement--but that may be because the importance I place on virtue and chastity may be more in line with Pres. Kimball.

So what you are saying is you value intangible concepts of purity over human life. Nice... More retarded that a downs kid in a candy store, but nice...

[_Blixa]

In many ways it was the societal norm.

No it wasn't. By that point in american history, a great deal of education about rape had been accomplished (largely as a consequence of feminism). I didn't view things this way, neither did my parents or grandparents. Or anyone else I respected.

Furthermore, shouldn't we expect the "inspired" and "anointed" "discerning" "judges in Israel" to have a better understanding of serious and important issues than the average man in the street? This is the same excuse that's offered for denying black men the priesthood and I'm sorry but that doesn't historically wash, either.

Evidently, President Kimball placed a much greater importance on virtue and chastity than you and the feminized world you grew up in. That doesn't make his position unreasonable. It just makes it different from your own. I trust that you can handle diversity. ;-)

And, if one is intent on determining which of the diverse levels of importance may be most advantageous for society, one may wish to check the legacy of each in terms of rates of out-of-wedlock pregnancies and infidelity, etc. I don't know about you, but I am inclined to put my money on Pres. Kimball over the feminist movement--but that may be because the importance I place on virtue and chastity may be more in line with Pres. Kimball.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If its diversity you want, Wade, then recognize the diverse kinds of feminism that exist: some of which share Kimball's notion of the importance of female chastity.

Also one need not deny pluralism to deny that the level of out-of-wedlock pregnancies and infidelity have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of rape. The only possible link I can see between these things is if one believed that a victim of rape was "ruined" and therefore unfit for wedlock.

I put a great deal of value on virture and morality, wade, however I don't limit the definition of those things to sexual matters only.

[_wenglund]

Would anyone else here besides me (and I suspect Nehor) be willing to fight to the death for safety, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

The first thing I like to ask when someone puts that question forth is "Really? So which branch of the Armed Forces did you serve in?"

If they answer that the never have, I try my best to repress the urge to beat them into a red smear on the deck. Talking about fighting to the death for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is the province of jingoists and cowards. Actions speak far louder than words do. If you're serious about it then I trust you'll be talking to an Armed Forces recruiter soon. If not, then kindly shut up.

I mean seriously, unless you have served, either in the Armed Forces or Uniformed Public Safety (LEO, Fire/Rescue, etc.) when have you ever actually put your ass on the line in defense of anything other then yourself?

My two cents on that subject... Anyways...

Your self-righteous bombast notwithstanding, the truly intelligent among us will understand that willingness to sacrifice one's life entails more than just military service. It also includes devoting one's life in a variety of ways to promote and preserving our inalienable rights--not the least of which is standing up and speaking out for such things even in the face of those, such as yourself, who ironically may wish to silence us--as though you are even in a position to say.

And, as for how-all I and others may have put our "ass on the line", we don't (or at least I don't) view ourselves as accountable to people, such as yourself, who post anonymously (some would say cowardly) on the internet, but rather to our God, our own consciences, and those whose opinions we actually respect and value.

Is that not what a woman being raped would be fighting for in addition to her virtue

No, she'd be fighting in order to survive the encounter. High minded BS about "virtue" is all well and good, but death is irrevocable. "Virtue" isn't a physical condition, in order to loose it you have to commit to an action that would remove it. Having your body taken by someone against your will isn't loosing your "virtue", it's assault. You act as if "virtue" is something physical and not an intangible ideal.[/quote]

We obviously understand "virtue" quite differently. And, I am fine with leaving it at that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mr. Coffee]

Your self-righteous bombast notwithstanding... blah blah blah

So what you're saying is that you have never done anything to actually live the ideal of self-sacrefice. Instead you just talk about it.

And, as for how-all I and others may have put our "ass on the line", we don't (or at least I don't) view ourselves as accountable to people, such as yourself, who post anonymously (some would say cowardly) on the internet,

So says the guy posting anonymously on the internet. Pot+Kettle=Black much? I mean, you're trying to say I am so how "cowardly" for doing the exact same thing you are, wondertard.


[/quote]but rather to our God, our own consciences, and those whose opinions we actually respect and value.[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you place pesting people about what a good little chrisitan you are on the same level as someone who places themselves in harms way for the public good? How retardedly self-rightious of you.

Ok, explain how holding yourself accountable to the Magical Sky Pixie places you at risk of dying for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", Wenglund. Seriously, I gotta hear this...

We obviously understand "virtue" quite differently. And, I am fine with leaving it at that.

You ain't getting off that easy, Sport. You stated your position, now be a man and justify it. Justify how "virtue" or "chastity" are more valuable than human life.

[_wenglund]

Clearly, some of us see a certsain connection between "virtue" and "rape", and some of us don't. This difference, I believe, is in part a function of the diverse meanings we attach to each of these word.

Some of us view both "virtue" and "rape" as comprising more than just a sexual act. Whereas some of us may not.

Some of us view "virtue" as a state of purity, where the soul is sexually and otherwise unviolated and unmared by evil and unrighteaousness. Whereas some may view it as being chaste (or, as they may understand it, no mutually willful illicite sexual relations).

Some of us view "rape" as having more to do with dehumanizing hatred and power and control than it does sex. Whereas some of us may not.

Accordingly, some of us believe a rapist can sexually and otherwise violate and mare his victim, particularly through dehumanizing hatred and power and control, and in that way rob the woman of her virtue and chastity (Think of it like a beautiful, clean, and immaculate home that has been soiled and thrashed by a filthy intruder, robbing the home not only of some of its possessions, but also to some degree robbing it of its beauty, cleanliness, and immaculance). Whereas others of us do not view "rape" as a mutually willful illicite sexual act (certainly not on the part of the victim), and thus the victim does not lose her virtue or chastity.

This is not about one or the other of us being unreasonable or wrong. Rather, this is about differing points of view--each reasonable and correct in their own rights.

At least that is how I tolerantly view it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Would anyone else here besides me (and I suspect Nehor) be willing to fight to the death for safety, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

I'm not sure what this has to do with a discussion about rape. And when did you sign up for military service? Or volunteer firefighter? Or volunteer EMT? I have only admiration for those who actually do put their lives on the line, whether in military service (in my family, that would be my son, my brother, my dad) or as volunteers (in my life, that would be my husband). I find the pathetic numbers of LDS who serve in the military to be lamentable, and just one more example of how we pound our chests, telling the world what a patriotic people we are, yet when push comes to shove, we cringe from our duty. So please expound on your service to our country, Wade. Are you in the National Guard?

Is that not what a woman being raped would be fighting for in addition to her virtue (I understand "virtue" in such cases to mean the sanctity of one's person is left unviolated. I can think of no greater violation of one's person than rape, except murder. I have friends who had their homes broken into and things stolen. They felt incredibly violated, and even used the term "rape" to describe how they felt.)

Rape has nothing to do with virtue or chastity, and everything to do with assault. It is not about sex; it is about domination. And this is one more example of how wrongheaded a prophet can be.

Just a thought.

I'm still waiting for this.

[_Runtu]

At least that is how I tolerantly view it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

\

How do you view it intolerably?

Charitably yours,

John

[_Mr. Coffee]

Blah blah blah... Retarded Attempt to try and justify placing blame for being victimized on the victim... blah blah blah

Wenglung, are you seriously saying that the victim of a rape is at all responsible or somehow wrong for being the victim of a crime?

Because that is precisely what saying someone is less "virtuious" for having been victimized is, jackass. You're also saying that it is somehow more "virtuious" for the victim to needlessly die in order to maintain their "virtue". The woman being raped has one of two choices, either surrender or die. You're saying that you'd rather them die. Full stop, end of story.

Let me ask you something then... Let's say your wife/girlfriend/mother/grandmother was raped. Would you rather them die over some BS about "virtue" or would you rather have your loved one still alive?

Accordingly, some of us believe a rapist can sexually and otherwise violate and mare his victim, particularly through dehumanizing hatred and power and control, and in that way rob the woman of her virtue and chastity (Think of it like a beautiful, clean, and immaculate home that has been soiled and thrashed by a filthy intruder, robbing the home not only of some of its possessions, but also to some degree robbing it of its beauty, cleanliness, and immaculance). Whereas others of us do not view "rape" as a mutually willful illicite sexual act (certainly not on the part of the victim), and thus the victim does not lose her virtue or chastity.

So you believe that rape is a consentual act?! What the F**K, over? It's "mutually willful" but not on the part of the victim?

Your "clean house" analogy fails. Much the same as a house can be cleaned using a few household chemicals and a little elbow greese, a rape victim can go one to lead a healthy and happy life with the aid of compassion and counciling. But under you're retarded rationale, instead of cleaning the house up you should just burn it to the ground instead.

This is not about one or the other of us being unreasonable or wrong. Rather, this is about differing points of view--each reasonable and correct in their own rights.

Differing points of view my hairy Marine ass. You just stated that you believe that the victim of rape is somehow responsibile for it and should face social penilties for it, assclown.

At least that is how I tolerantly view it.

Which is just a few steps shy of how tolerant a Shiara court treats a rape victim in Iran...



Oh, on a side note, I find it deliciously ironic that you tried to chid me for "cowardace" for using the anonymity of the internet, yet you're using it yourself and worse yet, you're posting as "hidden".

[_Blixa]

Oh yeah, I've been meaning to ask, what is "posting as "hidden"? How does one change/do this?