?????But they are really nice people.?????

[_The Nehor]

I don't see the facade as much as most here. Maybe people just trust me but people often come to me with their problems for blessings and mini-counseling/sharing sessions. It might depend on the ward. When I'm in trouble I have friends that I trust enough to believe that whatever they say they're trying to help (whether they're right or not).

As a rule of thumb if I need a friend who'll sympathize with me and let me talk I hang out with my girlfriends, when I need someone to snap me out of it, tell me how to fix it, or help me forget it I go with guy friends.

I think the key here is to have friends that see you when you're unguarded (not the superficial kind you eat out with every so often and talk glowingly about your own life). I think the people most prone to putting up a facade of perfection are those who won't let anyone in at all. They're also the only ones who have a prayer of pulling it off. If I think I'm perfect my friends are always willing to correct me :)

[_Jason Bourne]

Of course you realize you are being just as intolerant as you claim LDS are. But your motives are better so that makes it okay. Or are they?

So you're saying he's being intolerant of Mormon intolerance?

Schmo is intolerant of religious believers in general. At least it appears that way to me. As an exmo he just has a special place in his intolerance or Mormon religious believers.

[_Hoops]

Of course you realize you are being just as intolerant as you claim LDS are. But your motives are better so that makes it okay. Or are they?

So you're saying he's being intolerant of Mormon intolerance?

Schmo is intolerant of religious believers in general. At least it appears that way to me. As an exmo he just has a special place in his intolerance or Mormon religious believers.

I can tolerate that.

[_Jason Bourne]

Perhaps I don't know enough Mormons?

I, on the other hand, am one, so I know a fair few and wish I didn't know a fair few more.

Some LDS are wonderful, some are jerks, some are so so, and some are bastards, kind of like the whole of humanity.

[_Jason Bourne]

While all of that may or may not be true, how is it somehow morally superior for the op to ridicule another's belief and, perhaps more significantly, ridicule the character the adherents of those beliefs, in the name of tolerance. Seems quite intolerant to me.

And yet, Chad has been Mormon. He's seen the members from the inside, not the outside. Outside, we look very nice. We put on a nice facade as a general; the whole every member a missionary thing, ya know. Heaven forbid we actually show what we're really like to each other and what we really think of outsiders. Inside, we are anything but nice.

Perhaps we can cut him some slack, because his intolerance is a result of intolerance directed directly at him personally.

Oh horse crap. There are great Mormons and a good percentage of them are fairly decent people. And your experience is not any more then mine. They run the gamet.

[_wenglund]

Personally, I find the idea that Mormons are really nice people to be a bit left of true. Some Mormons are really nice people, but by and large I have not found Mormons to be really nice people. I've found them to be arrogant self-righteous pricks who think they're special in God's eyes. Nice people don't think they're special. There are some true Saints among us, but for the most part, we have a long ways to go in the Nice People Department.

Isn't it curious how different individuals can have such divergent perceptions of the same group people. Perhaps the saying is correct about one's perception of others being a reflection (or projection) of oneself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And it is equally if not moreso correct that the self cannot see itself as others see it. If you want to know how others see you, looking internally won't answer that question. You have to ask others and actually hear what they say. Something that members in general, and you in particular, seem to struggle with, Wade.

It's ironic that your comments about self-blindness was about others rather than yourself. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

On the contrary, Wade. I lump myself squarely with the arrogant self-righteous pricks who so accurately represent Mormonism to the world. Why would you assume I didn't?

You are evidently confused. The irony that I noted was specific to your brief comment about self-blindness (please see the underlined section above in which I explicitly state what I was specifically referring to, and please also see the bolded section above to see the specific comments I was referring to, and then be so kind as to note that nowhere in that bolded statement from you do you mention yourself, but clearly refer to others).

Obviously, the irony did not have in mind your earlier comment where you had lumped yourself squarely with the arrogant and self-righteous.

So, ironically contrary to what you suggest, the noted irony isn't to the contrary. And, why would you ironically assume that I would assume that you hadn't lumped yourself as stated? I was fully aware of the lumping, and nothing I said could reasonably be interpreted as suggesting otherwise.

It's only you, and members like you, who refuse to see our institutionalized arrogance for what it is. We, and I include myself in that We, are arrogant, reveling in our specialness, our chosen people-hood. Only by acknowledging the problem can it be dealt with. You, who are included in those who hide their head in the sand, are the intentionally blind one(s).

Ironically, you again self-blindingly make my point regarding the irony of your self-blinding or self-blinded comments (or, as you now refer to them as "refuse to see our institutionalized arrogance" and "hide their head in the sand"). Ironically you self-blindingly exempted yourself from having "refused to see" and "hiding your head in the sand" regarding the debatable issue of supposed institutionalized arrogance, though you were quite free in pointing the finger elsewhere.

I appreciate the humor you provided, whether intended or not.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Hoops]

Is pomposity self blinded as well?

[_Jason Bourne]

Amway.
*edited for lots of typos*

You are aware that Amway is very Mormon. Or is it Meleleuca? It's all the same scheme.

Amway is not Mormon. Amway was founded and Roch Devos and Jay Van Andel, both very Dutch Reformed Christians.

[_The Nehor]

To this conversation I would add that the surest way to know you are making God in your own image or think your morality reins supreme is to imagine that God hates all the people you dislike and loves those you most like or that the people you perceive as bad are genuinely bad and those you see as good are genuinely good.

[_Hoops]

God hates all the people you dislike...

Silly