Modesty & LDS Girls/Women & Sexually Frustrated Men

[_Hoops]

Hi Hoops..

If your comment is solely on the popular culture's objectification of women,

Yes this was the intent of my comment.

I am fully on board, ticket paid for, and excited for the trip. However, to tie men's natural reaction to this manifestation is unacceptable to me. We have had these thoughts of women long before there were "Vogue" or "insert insipid women's magazine title here" (I'm teasing)

I have never said anything about the natural inclination of men to enjoy a woman's body.

I thought you were blaming men for this phenomenon.

Nope... woman have bought into the idea. (I do think the origin has to do with the beginning of patriarchy thousands of years ago but this is another topic)! :-)

And the crux of your argument was the FACT that men admire women's form.

Nope... I'm talking about a society that sends a message to girls and women that their value lies in how sexually attractive they are to men.

I saw a girl just yesterday. Could have been anywhere from 15 to 25, I don't know. I don't remember what she looks like now, but at the time I thought she was very beautiful. So where does that place me on the scale of evil?

I'm not sure what gave you the impression that there is something wrong here... it is religion that has issues with evil not me.

Men and women notice the unusual... attractive, UNattractive, tall, short, fat, skinny. We notice what is more unusual in life.

I do not understand the idea that there is evil in this.

What IS primitive (in my opinion), is the idea that a woman's worth is equal to her attractiveness. Again, I am NOT saying this is YOUR opinion. I'm saying that this is the message inundating our society.


~dancer~

Then I owe you an apology for my snottiness. I agree with you. I think our little altercation was flummoxed by my contention that a women's sexual attractiveness does have value, yet I did not make clear that it's value should be with confines agreed upon by that particular woman. i.e. my husband should think I'm hot!!

Thanks for your patience with me.

[_barrelomonkeys]

One more thought before I head out. I believe women are equally responsible for how society values us. We enable men to view us a sex objects if we buy into this culture.

Women can be very vain and may use their beauty for power over another. I think many times women dress immodestly, sexually, or wear expensive clothing to impress other women. Some feel power by making other girls envious of them. Some women take it too far and get off on making men look at them in front of their girlfriend or wife. Some of these same girls can be the ones to go after a married or taken man.

I think modesty can also include not wearing clothing that is used to make yourself feel above another. I see so many young girls that are mean and critical of those who don't dress trendy or who don't wear the expensive designer labels.

Seven, I couldn't agree more!!!!

Alpha female complex is what I call it.

[_asbestosman]

I think many times women dress immodestly, sexually, or wear expensive clothing to impress other women. Some feel power by making other girls envious of them.

I have heard similar thoughts from other women too. My wife wears make-up more to keep her mother happy than for my sake.

[_The Nehor]

Your penchant for buttressing your argument with hyperbole is not helpful. Who in the world said construction workers whistling at a fifteen year old is acceptable. Please, emotionalism is impressive, but not helpful.

No, I don't know what it is like to be admired in this way. Nor do you know what it's like to walk around with sexual impulses you can not control and have a thought you have every 6 seconds be called sinful and demeaning to 52% of the population.

Nor have I ever suggested that a woman's sexual attractiveness should be the limit to their value - nor a man's.

Then your complaint is with those who do. Those of us, the vast majority, who do admire a woman's shape and admire a woman's mystery are not your enemy. Though, in your zeal to defend some ridiculous feminist world view, you have made us so.

Sorry, women are here for the pleasure of men. Men are here for the pleasure of women. Get over yourself. You're not nearly as persecuted as you claim.

To deconstruct all of your gross generalizations and exaggerations would take quite some time. You may enjoy waging this war on men, but I won't participate.

While it might be strong he's right in a way. While there may have been six thousand years of women trying to attract men men also have spent the last six thousand years being judged by how what quality (and quantity) of women they can catch.

[_huckelberry]

[quote="truth dancer"]Hi Seven,

[quote]When I see women dressing in a sexually suggestive way, I think it reveals more about them than the man who may get turned on. Women like that are very insecure and enjoy/need the sexual attention.[/quote]

It speaks to girls women who buy into the belief that their worth is based on attention from males.

After six thousand years, I say it is time to move on with this nonsense!

:-)

[color=violet]~dancer~[/color][/quote]

Move on? So why would you ever expect that to happen?
Or perhaps more optimistically, so how is that going to happen?
..............................................................................................

My first thought was being put off earlier by your construction worker reference. I think it is true that males are capable of behaving badly. I do not see much positive change assisted by negatively stereotyping construction workers. Or older men grown disgusting etc.

I am a little puzzled by the phrase, society teaching. After all society is the set of you and me exteded out to include a large group of people. It has no mind but the decisions of you and me and you andt etc. Looking at the group we make a big fuss about valueing women as people instead of sex objects in the sixties. Fourty years later has it changed?

Actually I suspect some yes and some no would be the answer to whether there has been improvement. I see a couple of problems. One is that unfortunately humans start over each generation. They start growing knowing little or nothing about what they can be. They are afraid they lack value, afraid they do not know how to get along in the world. I remember that particularly acute in Jr High. I looked at your list of self worth problems girls face and thought how was that different than my experience other than I didn't have that particular leverage of being able to cause half the human race to stop and take notice. I suspect some girls might try and use that little gift. After all we start out confused ignorant and afraid.

I remember learning solutions of my own to the no self worth terrors. Looking back I realize that I wasn't alone in those feelings. I remember a pair of brothers who liked to fight and take risks. They made themselves generally obnoxious in Jr Hi untill their car found a tree and they died. I realize looking back they were afraid found themselves short of better ways to establish self worth so found raising hell a solution.

At least part of my solution was doing doing well in school. A fair number of people did not really appreciate that. I found that obnoxious while in public school. Looking back I see why. Everybody feared lacking worth and if they were not good in school isn't that unfair? Of course they resented it adn decided something else was worth while. Fighter dicided fighting was. Football players decided that was. Hot car owners decided, and some girls find being attractive works quite well thankyou.

Do you expect to talk those girls into throwing away their ace of Trump?

A second problem comes to mind. Ideally men find women attractive physically and that gets joined with finding other personal qualities attractive and that gets joined with a desire to give all people respect and honor.

I suspect that if women were less attractive this combination would not occur more frequently. If the combination does not happen so unpleasant things can happen instead. People can actually discover a type of self worth in taking advantage of others. They can discover a real thrill and satisfaction in being predatory. Intensity may be increased through simplfication.

So the ideal is running compition with some other things. Men can be predatory towards women for status and satisfaction. Women can use attractiveness in the same way, power and influence.

[_moksha]

So I notice lots and lots of giggles and jokes about things that really aren't that sexually enticing (well at least to me) or suggestive on this board. Almost to the point of being childish and asinine. Now this very well could just be the internet and the odd mix of posters that reply to sexually suggestive threads or posts that have innuendos in them. I was wondering if this had more to do with LDS and the culture though.

I think you have hit on a universal aspect of men: We can be turned on by mud, if it is the right temperature. The unrestrained libido is capable of many polymorphously perverse acts if given the chance. It is unfair for women to call this childish or asinine, because it is just part of the human condition. However, you are right to expect a certain degree of decorum on this board, but the expectation of a refined animal underneath will leave you disappointed.

[_Scottie]

I heard a line on The Bob and Tom show by a comedian that so eloquently said what I have been thinking for years.

I wish I could remember who it was, but he said, "Women need to stop treating men like they're broken women."

From what I understand, as a general rule, women are not visually stimulated like men are. Women treat this difference in the sexes as if it is some sort of deficiency in men. Hence all the times I've been labeled a pervert for doing what is natural.

The same could be said for feeling emotions, or sharing our feelings, or whatever. We just aren't wired that way. It isn't a reflection on how we feel about you if we don't want to talk, or if we would rather watch that ultra violent movie than snuggle, etc. Yet it seems that even though men are expected to know and understand the needs that women have, many women won't try and understand our differences and our needs.

[/rant]

Note: I think I should say that I don't see this lack of understanding from the women I've seen participating here. You all seem to be very understanding of the differences between men and women.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Hoops...

No problem! :-)

Nehor...

While it might be strong he's right in a way. While there may have been six thousand years of women trying to attract men men also have spent the last six thousand years being judged by how what quality (and quantity) of women they can catch.

ABSOLUTELY! I totally agree with you... it is another thread but I think what has happened is equally bad for men as it is for women... It is unhealthy for humankind.

Hi Huck...

I just have a minute but want to briefly respond...

First, I hesitated to use the example of a construction worker because it was so stereotypical.. I only used it to make the point and because it is a true example of a real experience. It is not that there is anything wrong with construction workers... I know some fabulous ones. And older men are great... nothing wrong with them. And when folks work they get dirty... nothing wrong with that. My point was, to a fifteen year old girl, this situation was a difficult one, one not wanted or provoked. Apologies to anyone who was offended by my use of this particular example.

I am a little puzzled by the phrase, society teaching. After all society is the set of you and me exteded out to include a large group of people. It has no mind but the decisions of you and me and you andt etc. Looking at the group we make a big fuss about valueing women as people instead of sex objects in the sixties. Fourty years later has it changed?

I'm speaking about the very real difficulty girls and young women are faced with today. OK, so they read into the idea that they are valued by their sexual attractiveness. Yep many do. It is difficult for girls and young women to see in virtually everything around them that this is truth without believing it. We have created a society that sends an unhealthy message to girls and young women.

And yes, our society (all of us), are collectively responsible for what our society is.

I'm not thinking anything is going to change in forty, fifty or a hundred years... I believe there will come a time when women are treated as equal... as humankind becomes more enlightened, caring, respectful of others. Think how long it took slavery to end. And owning women is older! :-) Look how long it took for women to get the vote? For women to be allowed to participate in many community organizations? You know? I'm not thinking things will change overnight!

Do you expect to talk those girls into throwing away their ace of Trump?

My hope is that as men and women begin to value women as human beings, there will be less emphasis on one's sexual attractiveness, (and power, control, wealth), and more concern with humanness.

Gotta run... :-)

~dancer~

[_Bond...James Bond]

I can say with certainty that no matter how modestly young ladies dress.....the young men will be turned on. Blaming it on the ladies is passing the buck.....just admit that young men are horny and be honest about it. Oh wait....we're talking about honesty and Mormonism here....my mistake. Carry on with the denial of reality and the guilt trips.

[_Yoda]

I can say with certainty that no matter how modestly young ladies dress.....the young men will be turned on. Blaming it on the ladies is passing the buck.....just admit that young men are horny and be honest about it. Oh wait....we're talking about honesty and Mormonism here....my mistake. Carry on with the denial of reality and the guilt trips.

I would venture to say that most men would absolutely blush if they knew the kinds of things women discuss amongst their "girlfriends". We make locker room talk sound like child's play.

;)