Why is Joseph Smith's polygamy controversial?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm thinking that God would have considered child molestation, mass murdering, and lying in all his dealings to cross the line, if Joseph Smith would have engaged in these practices. God didn't give a command to engage in these practices. OTOH, it is purported/said that God did command Joseph to practice the law of plurality of wives, being a part of the restoration of all things in a final dispensation of time.

I don't know that it is unreasonable to think that God would then let Joseph decide, at least to a certain extent, how this law was to be lived/practiced. And that's where I would think that the truth of what really happened and the reasons for those things that happened may lie somewhere in the middle, rather than at either extreme.

I'm asking YOU, mentalgymnast, if there is any behavior (other than the one you already specified) which would, in YOUR mind, undermine Joseph Smith' claims. I'm not asking you where you think God would draw the line - I'm asking where YOU would draw the line.

I want to be clear that the "how" the law was lived by Joseph Smith included lying, manipulation, and spiritual abuse. You really think God would be ok with "how" when the "how" entailed morally offensive behavior?

The reason that in principle I'm somewhat amenable (although when it comes right down to it I see it as being unfair to women...chattel comes to mind) to polygamy is because within the Judeo-Christian tradition, at times, it has been a practice which appears to have had the sanction of God. God has never sanctioned child abuse as a practice in and of itself, although indirectly it has been a by product of mass extermination, which if the Old Testament is to be believed apparently happened. If Joseph Smith had come out and said that he had received a revelation condoning mass murder or child molestation...I would have a problem with that.

Polygamy is a tough one to get through/accept in early church history. I can see why it may be a "deal breaker" for some. It is one of the issues that sent me over to the the New Order Mormon board for a while a number of years ago. I've read the issue of the Nauvoo Expositor that was published before the press was destroyed. I question why Joseph approved the destruction of the press rather than letting things come out in the open and let the chips fall were they may. The William Law episode is a sad story with an unfortunate ending. Image was more important than straight up honesty in Nauvoo just before things came tumbling down. Polygamy resulted in many unforseen and unhappy consequences along with the good that came of it.

Beyond the confines/borders in which I've attempted to rationalize/explain polygamy as possibly having been God's will...I can't go. The interpretive meanings and actions that resulted from the institution of this practice are difficult to put into a contextual framework by which one can honestly say, "All was right and good", even though there was good that came of it...down the road...here and there.

Regards,
MG

[_Inconceivable]

Polygamy resulted in many unforseen and unhappy consequences along with the good that came of it.

Beyond the confines/borders in which I've attempted to rationalize/explain polygamy as possibly having been God's will...I can't go. The interpretive meanings and actions that resulted from the institution of this practice are difficult to put into a contextual framework by which one can honestly say, "All was right and good", even though there was good that came of it...down the road...here and there.

Regards,
MG

MG,

Maybe I am just too angry about the issue to see any good at all. What do you know?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Inconceivable,

Maybe I am just too angry about the issue to see any good at all. What do you know?

I believe we can look back on the history of the world, and find some good from nearly anything...


NOT THAT THIS IN ANY WAY MAKES THE HORRIBLE SITUATION ANY BETTER.

There are those who will say that they wouldn't be here if not for a great, great grandfather taking a harem. So, one could say there was good from polygamy.

This means nothing to me.

There are plenty of folks alive because their mother's were raped. And, if history did not unfold exactly as it has, it would be completely different. If there wasn't the black plague many people wouldn't be here. If there weren't the horrors and devastation the world over, many people wouldn't be here.

You can take the worst atrocity and find something great that happened because history unfolded as it did.

Personally, I think there are enough sorrows and challenges in life without humans being cruel to each other, without reverting to a primitive animalistic lifestyle.*

~dancer~

*Even animals engaging in a harem lifestyle however do not demand a female only have one partner. So, the dominance, power, and control of a polygamy is less humane than even the animals, in my opinion! ;-)

[Guest]

I was just reading this blog.. and thinking about my own life and how surprised, dismayed, and confused I am when an older man shows sexual interest in me. I searched for articles dealing with this. Anyway I thought this might add something to this discussion about Joseph.

http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyze ... young.html

From that site

If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about what older men "really" want. Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren't their fathers or brothers but who aren't prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire. That doesn't mean that we (older guys) shouldn't acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures. But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them.

I find it hard to believe Joseph did not have sex with his wives. Atleast a number of them.

*edited to add bold as found on the website*

[_beastie]

The reason that in principle I'm somewhat amenable (although when it comes right down to it I see it as being unfair to women...chattel comes to mind) to polygamy is because within the Judeo-Christian tradition, at times, it has been a practice which appears to have had the sanction of God. God has never sanctioned child abuse as a practice in and of itself, although indirectly it has been a by product of mass extermination, which if the Old Testament is to be believed apparently happened. If Joseph Smith had come out and said that he had received a revelation condoning mass murder or child molestation...I would have a problem with that.

You appear to be saying that you would be ok with anything that God sanctions. (of course, God speaking through the human voice sanctions)

I see this stance a lot in believers - that they'd be ok with anything as long as they believe God sanctioned it. Why? Why are you willing to abdicate your own sense of morality and decency for your God? The Old Testament is full of horrible actions that God sanctioned, including mass murder or genocide. Are you ok with that? The willingness to abdicate your own sense of right and wrong is compounded when you remember that God always "sanctions" things through the human voice.

But let's assume, for the moment, that the human voice can accurately convey what God really does "sanction." For all you know. that "God" is a misogynist, racist, cruel being who wishes to turn human beings into his own image. Even if a godbeing exists, that does not automatically qualify him/her for respect, worship, adoration, etc.

The way believers are willing to abdicate their own sense of morality for God and God's apparent eagerness to order human beings to do makes me think of God as a mafia don with cruel loyalty tests. "How much do you love me, son - enough to go kill your own child?" Because you do realize that God is ok with killing your own children under certain circumstances, right?

[_beastie]

MG -

Take a good look at the psychopath God you worship:

Here are some more acts that God appears to condone in the Old Testament, along with polygamy


Genesis 22
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did atempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gensis 38
7 And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father’s house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father’s house.
12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah’s wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.
13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
14 And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman’s hand: but he found her not.
21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.
22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.


Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and awash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.


Exodus

7
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.


11

4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.


22
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

31

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to bdeath: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of arest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any bwork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.




32
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.


Leviticus
10
1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out afire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


20
9 For every one that curseth hisbfather or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have awrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an cabomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. *
15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.


(*Joseph Smith violated this commandment, by the way)


21
9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

24
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

25
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.


26

4 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.


There's much, much more - I stopped at Numbers. You can read more here:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/Old Testament.html

If you are willing to accept polygamy because it seems to be condoned in the Old Testament, then you must also condone all these other acts. Do you have children? If one of them grows up to curse you, you can kill him.

[_Yoda]

This post would fit well in WK's thread in the Telestial Forum.

;)

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... php?t=2837

[_harmony]

If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about what older men "really" want. Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren't their fathers or brothers but who aren't prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire. That doesn't mean that we (older guys) shouldn't acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures. But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them.

I like this man. I vote let's make him the prophet.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG -

Take a good look at the psychopath God you worship:

Here are some more acts that God appears to condone in the Old Testament...

You're kidding! You mean all that stuff is in the Old Testament? <big grin>

Wouldn't you love to hop in a time machine and go back and observe what came before, during, and after? I would. It's impossible to know all the details and why's and wherefore's of what transpired way back when. I would assume the Deuteronomists and other transcribers/translators may have had a little say on what was going on...and going into the record we have as the Old Testament.

Here's where the Book of Mormon can take the edge off things.

And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. (Enos 1:23)

It is at times necessary to use visceral language containing explicit punishments. As one's spiritual progression moves away from darkness and toward light, then, accordingly, the incentives of eternal life and exaltation become more of a pull forward by a loving, compassionate God and there is less need for the threat of the Inferno in order to halt a downward spiral. Moral agency becomes the determining factor.

What happens when moral agency becomes stagnant/repressed? How does God deal with this sort of thing in its various degrees/manifestations?

You are speaking as a product of western civilization and progress. We civilized folks look at the world differently than say a young radical/fascist muslim in training...and those of his superiors entrenched in methods of torture and mayhem.

Back in the ancient near east would you suppose that the same code of conduct that is the norm today within countries/territories that would consider themselves to be subscribers to the Singapore Declaration of Commonwealth Principles brought forth by the Heads of Government of the Commonwealth of Nations, was the same code of conduct practiced by the ancient tribes and city states of Canaan?

If God exists, does he not have to work within the scope and sequence of where people are at spiritually, culturally, intellectually, and so on? We see the Old Testament God as being a vengeful, conniving, jealous, and murderous ruler with little or no compassion. Because of all the factors/variables that are involved, I sit in a place where I see this as being somewhat similar to looking at the practice of polygamy in the early church.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Thus, I'm willing to give the benefit of a doubt to Judeo/Christian tradition and a purported final dispensation of a restored fullness of the Christian gospel/plan of salvation.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

You missed my point, MG. You are willing to accept polygamy due to the fact that God seemed to accept it in the Old Testament. But my point is that God seemed to accept a heck of a lot of things that you are not willing to accept today, and instead, create rationalizations for their existence in the Bible.

So why is polygamy ok because it seems to be accepted in the Old Testament, but killing witches or rebellious children isn't? If Joseph Smith said God revealed to him that we should kill anyone who blasphemes, would you be ok with that because God accepted it in the Old Testament?