Mormon mindset....

[_why me]

What is the purpose of this thread? I see no purpose in it. Perhaps PP would be happy if the LDS church would return to its original log cabin where the first meeting was held in the early 1830's. The church is successful in business and posters like PP just can't stand it. Unfortunately, we live in a capitalist world and business is a part of daily life. This is no different for religious organizations. The LDS church has an interest in keeping Salt Lake vibrant. As one who experienced Salt Lake during Reagan's recession of 1981, I can tell you that downtown was bleak then and depressing.

I say Hooray for the LDS church for keeping the city beautiful and successful.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Ah, I see what Daniel's problem is, then.

I didn't and don't have a "problem."

And the Church still neither owns the majority of media in Utah nor controls the flow of news in Utah.

I think additionally, since the members know that the Bonneville International empire is owned by the church, the majority of them would trust it moreso than they would a station/newspaper that is owned by someone else with whom they are not familiar.

I find this notion quite dubious. Besides occasionally tuning in for traffic bulletins "on the nines" when I'm on the freeway, I, for example, typically listen to KSL-AM only at conference time -- in other words, for about eight hours on each of two weekends annually, including no news or editorial content from KSL itself. These stations operate in a competitive broadcast market. If they attract listeners, it's not out of a sense of religious obligation.

I'm comparatively savvy about communications matters, I would guess, and have even appeared on KSL-TV, KSL-AM, as well a number of other Salt Lake market radio and television stations. I knew that the Church owns a company that owns KSL-TV and KSL-AM. Whether all, most, or many Utahns are aware of that fact, I don't know.

It constantly surprises me what Americans don't know -- like the location of Canada, and the names of their senators, their governor, and even of the Vice President. I don't think you should assume without evidence that a substantial proportion of Utahns know that the Church owns Bonneville International and, thereby, indirectly owns KSL., let alone assuming that an awareness of the Church's ownership of Bonneville and of Bonneville's ownership of KSL-AM would be a significant factor in choosing to listen to that station rather than to, say, Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Laura Schlesinger, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, and Michael Savage on another -- non-Church-owned -- radio station, or in choosing to listen to rock music or country music or jazz or "Christian contemporary" or even LDS pop music on some other non-Bonneville station. In my experience, there is very rarely any distinctlvely LDS content on either KSL-TV or KSL-AM

Still, even though I'm probably unusually conscious of such things, even I was unaware that the Church owned a company that owns a soft-rock station, a nostalgia station, and an inspirational station in the Salt Lake area. I doubt that many Utahns besides me know it, either. And if they don't know about it, Church ownership seems unlikely to influence their listening decisions.

[_aussieguy55]

Sometimes I think we overrate the influence of the Media. In Sydney (Australia) during the last State election the Murdoch newspapers came out against the Labor Government and yet the party was returned. Also we have more variety of sources on the Internet (Blogs etc). I imagine if the LDS church has media outlets for making income. They will not turn nonlds listeners/viewers off by becoming a propaganda machine for the LDS church.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Sometimes I think we overrate the influence of the Media. In Sydney (Australia) during the last State election the Murdoch newspapers came out against the Labor Government and yet the party was returned. Also we have more variety of sources on the Internet (Blogs etc). I imagine if the LDS church has media outlets for making income. They will not turn nonlds listeners/viewers off by becoming a propaganda machine for the LDS church.

I'm shocked at the concept, but we actually agree.

[_Mister Scratch]

I imagine if the LDS church has media outlets for making income. They will not turn nonlds listeners/viewers off by becoming a propaganda machine for the LDS church.

I generally agree with this, although I would toss in the caveat that we have ample evidence that the Brethren want to control the flow of information. (E.g., the SCMC, the monitoring of "1,500 anti-Mormon websites", the various cannings, firings, and ex'ings, the mandate in the D&C to collect anti-Mormon materials, etc.) Will Church-owned media be so overt as to issue obvious propaganda? No. Will we be able to observe subtle manipulation of the media to further the Church's agenda---e.g., toning down of criticism? Yes, I believe so.

[_Gazelam]

I don't think you understand how deep this goes Scratch. They use the signals to keep the membership indoctrinated and under control. I know a guy who has been in contact with local servicemen here in vegas on their mountaintop towers. There is only one way to protect yourself...




I recommend the Fez for you, it would go great with your beard. I myself use the bowler.

[_harmony]

Ah, I see what Daniel's problem is, then.

I didn't and don't have a "problem."

That's what everybody says, Daniel, me included. The problem is always with the "other" guy. In this case, you're the "other" guy.

And the Church still neither owns the majority of media in Utah nor controls the flow of news in Utah.

That you say this so earnestly, without any documentation, with a straight face simply shows what you think this place is as gullible as MAD.

Let's see exactly what Utah looks like, starting with the radio stations first as an example:

In the Salt Lake market, which includes Salt Lake county, Davis county, and Utah county, the church owns KSL AM and FM, KSFI, KRSP, K-BYU, and KUTR. Arbitron numbers signal market share, so let's use the Arbitron numbers that the Deseret News reports regularly.

In 2005, KSL was #1 with a 9.3% market share. KSFI was #2 with a 8.5% market share. KRSP had a 4.1% market share. So 3 of the church's radio stations made the Top 10 in the SLC market. Between the bunch of them, they commanded almost 22% of the market share. With over 100 stations in the market, for one owner to command that kind of market share is pretty danged good marketing.

source: http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/arch ... -18-05.pdf

Fast forward to 2007. In 2007, KSL is slipped a bit, but is still #1 with a 7.1% market share. KSFI slipped to #4 with a 4.8%. KRSP is #6 at 4.3% So those 3 combined to a 16.2% market share, which is still danged good, although Clear Channel has surpassed them with 6 stations that total a 20% market share.

source: http://www.deseretmorningnews.com/artic ... 23,00.html

Then add in the tv stations:

The LDS church owns both KSL (Bonneville International) and K-BYU (through BYU). Clear Channel owns KTVX, the ABC affiliate, and KUCW, which I think is a cable station (correct me if I'm wrong, please). So they're pretty well even there.

Source for both radio and television ownership information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sa ... City_media

Where Clear Channel loses is in the newspaper. Clear Channel doesn't own a newspaper, the church owns the Deseret News (#2) and half of the publishing company that publishes the Trib (#1).

So... conclusion is that while Clear Channel is trying and giving Bonneville International a run for their money, until they get into the newspaper business, they aren't going to beat out the church. Because the church owns media in all three media types, they win, since their nearest rival scores a big ZERO in 1/3 of the competition.

Your personal reading, listening, and viewing habits notwithstanding, the numbers don't lie, Daniel. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Oh, and by the way, the population numbers don't lie either. Salt Lake, Davis, and Utah counties account for 2/3 of the population in Utah. Thus media in those markets smothers any locally owned media in the outlying counties.

[_Daniel Peterson]

And the Church still neither owns the majority of media in Utah nor controls the flow of news in Utah.

That you say this so earnestly, without any documentation, with a straight face simply shows what you think this place is as gullible as MAD.

This place is far more gullible than MAD.

Anyway, I've documented my claim about four different ways on this very thread. (This place -- or some here, anyway -- must also suffer from amnesia.)

And I shall now document it yet again:

Let's see exactly what Utah looks like, starting with the radio stations first as an example:

In the Salt Lake market, which includes Salt Lake county, Davis county, and Utah county, the church owns KSL AM and FM, KSFI, KRSP, K-BYU, and KUTR. Arbitron numbers signal market share, so let's use the Arbitron numbers that the Deseret News reports regularly.

In 2005, KSL was #1 with a 9.3% market share. KSFI was #2 with a 8.5% market share. KRSP had a 4.1% market share. So 3 of the church's radio stations made the Top 10 in the SLC market. Between the bunch of them, they commanded almost 22% of the market share. With over 100 stations in the market, for one owner to command that kind of market share is pretty danged good marketing.

9.3% + 8.5% + 4.1% = 21.9%

21.9% is not a majority by any normal English definition of the word majority.

Ergo, it is plain that the Church did not own a majority of the radio stations in the Salt Lake market during 2005 in terms of market share, just as it was already plain that the Church does not own a majority of the radio stations in the Salt Lake market in terms of raw number of stations.

Fast forward to 2007. In 2007, KSL is slipped a bit, but is still #1 with a 7.1% market share. KSFI slipped to #4 with a 4.8%. KRSP is #6 at 4.3% So those 3 combined to a 16.2% market share, which is still danged good, although Clear Channel has surpassed them with 6 stations that total a 20% market share.

16.2% is not a majority by any normal English definition of the word majority.

Accordingly, it is plain that the Church does not own a majority of the radio stations in the Salt Lake market in 2007, in terms of market share, just as it was already plain that the Church does not own a majority of the radio stations in the Salt Lake market in terms of raw number of stations.

Clear Channel's 20% market share is also not a majority -- so that it would be false to say even that Clear Channel owns the majority of media in Utah -- but Clear Channel's market share is larger than the Church's 16.2%. .

Then add in the tv stations:

The LDS church owns both KSL (Bonneville International) and K-BYU (through BYU). Clear Channel owns KTVX, the ABC affiliate, and KUCW, which I think is a cable station (correct me if I'm wrong, please). So they're pretty well even there.

If these were the only television stations in the entire Utah market, and if KSL and KBYU together drew 50.0001% of the viewing audience, and if television stations were the only media that counted, it might be plausible to say that the Church owns the majority of media in Utah. But there are several other television stations in Utah, including the CBS affiliates in Salt Lake (KUTV) and St. George (KUSG) and the University of Utah's KUED. And KSL and KBYU certainly don't draw 50.0001+% of the viewing audience, and television stations aren't the only media that count.

Thus, it would be incorrect to suggest that the Church owns the majority of television stations in Utah.

It is, thus, clear that the Church does not own the majority of broadcast media in Utah. And, as we've already seen, the Church does not own the majority of print media in Utah. Since these seem to exhaust conventional media outlets, it seems indisputable that the Church does not own the majority of media in Utah.

Next, does the Church control the flow of news in Utah?

The evidence seems heavily weighted against this claim, since the majority of the media in Utah are not controlled by the Church in the first place, and since it hasn't been shown that the Church controls the news content -- which is, in any event, relatively slight on soft-rock, easy-listening, and "inspirational" stations -- even in the cases of the media outlets that it owns.

Where Clear Channel loses is in the newspaper. Clear Channel doesn't own a newspaper, the church owns the Deseret News (#2) and half of the publishing company that publishes the Trib (#1).

The question was never whether Bonneville International and the Deseret Morning News have a larger share of the overall media market in Utah than does Clear Channel. (Who cares about Clear Channel? Who cares whether a Bonneville-owned "easy-listening" station has a bigger audience share than a non-Bonneville-owned "classic country" station?)

Please stop trying to obfuscate.

The question was always about whether your claim that "the church owns both the DN and the Trib" and that "They control most of the news in UT, through KSL radio and tv, the DN, and the Trib" was true.

It has been shown to be false in every respect. The Church doesn't own the Salt Lake Tribune. Its radio stations do not control the Utah market. Its television stations do not control the Utah market. And, in any case, it has not been demonstrated that the Church controls the news even within the market segment that Church-owned stations reach.

If it doesn't quack like a duck and it doesn't walk like a duck, it's not a duck.

[_harmony]

The question was always about whether your claim that "the church owns both the DN and the Trib" and that "They control most of the news in UT, through KSL radio and tv, the DN, and the Trib" was true.

Now now, Daniel. I stood corrected on the ownership of the Trib long ago; however, the church does own half of the Trib's publishing company, so it's not like they aren't connected at all.

It has been shown to be false in every respect.

Only in your mind, Daniel. I'm still waiting to be convinced... me and Mr. Barberi. Oh but he doesn't count either, does he? He's just the most popular talk show host in Salt Lake, or something like that. He wouldn't know what he's talking about at all, especially since he obviously doesn't agree with you.

The Church doesn't own the Salt Lake Tribune.

So? They own half of it's publishing company. A little flex of that muscle and the Trib doesn't get published.

Its radio stations do not control the Utah market.

The church doesn't own the majority of radio stations. I don't know where you got that from. Try to keep on the subject, okay? What the church does control is market share, especially when combined with the television stations and newspaper.

What do you mean by control? Because I'm saying the church owns more media market share than any other single entity in the state (and I think I've pretty well proven that). I'm not saying the church controls the editorial content though.

Its television stations do not control the Utah market.

Would you please try to stay on the subject?

I showed why I think that, in combination with the radio stations, the television stations, and the Deseret News, the LDS church owns enough of the media market in Utah to say it can, even if it does not, control the media market. No other media group owns as much media as the LDS church, in the state of Utah. No other media group has such significant ownership in all three segments of media. And that's all I'm saying. I'd be just as leery, were that significant amount of diversified media be concentrated in any group's hands.

You, on the other hand, are simply bleating repeatedly that the church doesn't control the Utah market. Show why you think they don't. Assertion does not an argument make.

[_Polygamy Porter]

What is the purpose of this thread? I see no purpose in it. Perhaps PP would be happy if the LDS church would return to its original log cabin where the first meeting was held in the early 1830's. The church is successful in business and posters like PP just can't stand it. Unfortunately, we live in a capitalist world and business is a part of daily life. This is no different for religious organizations. The LDS church has an interest in keeping Salt Lake vibrant. As one who experienced Salt Lake during Reagan's recession of 1981, I can tell you that downtown was bleak then and depressing.

I say Hooray for the LDS church for keeping the city beautiful and successful.

Sorry, but you do not qualify as a defender.

And if any of you believe the City Creek plan is not up a creek with out a paddle, just wait a few years.