If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

Richard Bushman from his new book, “Joseph Smith’s Gold Plates”.

In spite of efforts on all sides, after two hundred years the mystery of the gold plates remains. The source of the idea, other than being the gift of an angel, has never been identified.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

Richard Bushman from his new book, “Joseph Smith’s Gold Plates”.

In spite of efforts on all sides, after two hundred years the mystery of the gold plates remains. The source of the idea, other than being the gift of an angel, has never been identified.

Regards,
MG

MG, perhaps you could explain this odd quote a bit. On the face of it I have no idea why the source of the idea should be a mystery or puzzle. True there are many possible sources and suggestions and it would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to determine which possibilities were most accurate. Is there some way in which this would matter? Sounds like an incidental consideration an historian might take a look at to see if it leads anywhere.

//
I can see the statement as a rhetorical device to focus attention in the direction of the angel.

[tagriffy]

The plates are the ‘artifact’ that act as the KEY to everything. That is what Bushman was saying if I’m understanding him correctly. I think DCP is essentially saying the same thing. Now I suppose that the critics could say that the plates were found ‘by accident’ and take the angel out of the story, but that would be conjecture on their part. The facts seem to point towards plates. If an angel delivered them to Joseph Smith then the restoration story and all that comes of it then becomes a matter of fact.

I honestly think that those that disregard the evidence of the plates and what the ramifications are have other reasons for either evading and/or disregarding their import.

The plates and the angel, by association, demonstrate/prove the fact that God exists and Jesus is the Christ. The controversies of the ages are nullified.

In response to an earlier post of mine gadianton said:

I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.

[tagriffy]

Richard Bushman from his new book, “Joseph Smith’s Gold Plates”.

In spite of efforts on all sides, after two hundred years the mystery of the gold plates remains. The source of the idea, other than being the gift of an angel, has never been identified.

Regards,
MG

As reported by Fawn Brodie, "a Palmyra paper in 1821 had reported that diggers on the Erie Canal had unearthed "several brass plates" along with skeletons and fragments of pottery" (No Man Knows My History, 2nd ed., p. 35). For that matter, take a look at Dan Vogel's Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, which has plenty of material showing how the idea of the plates may have occurred to Joseph.

[drumdude]

The plates are the ‘artifact’ that act as the KEY to everything. That is what Bushman was saying if I’m understanding him correctly. I think DCP is essentially saying the same thing. Now I suppose that the critics could say that the plates were found ‘by accident’ and take the angel out of the story, but that would be conjecture on their part. The facts seem to point towards plates. If an angel delivered them to Joseph Smith then the restoration story and all that comes of it then becomes a matter of fact.

I honestly think that those that disregard the evidence of the plates and what the ramifications are have other reasons for either evading and/or disregarding their import.

The plates and the angel, by association, demonstrate/prove the fact that God exists and Jesus is the Christ. The controversies of the ages are nullified.

In response to an earlier post of mine gadianton said:

I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.

Yep.

And the historical fact that Joseph didn't actually translate from them makes the entire plates story just a mcguffin. A MacGuffin is a plot device used in films or books that sets the characters into motion and drives the story. In this case, the plates were so important that Nephi murdered a man for them. That they had to be painstakingly carved and hiked up from Central America to upstate New York. All so that Joseph could not use them to create the Book of Mormon.

It strains credulity.

[MG 2.0]

I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.

Earlier I said:

The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.

How do you deal with that?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Richard Bushman from his new book, “Joseph Smith’s Gold Plates”.



Regards,
MG

MG, perhaps you could explain this odd quote a bit. On the face of it I have no idea why the source of the idea should be a mystery or puzzle. True there are many possible sources and suggestions and it would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to determine which possibilities were most accurate. Is there some way in which this would matter? Sounds like an incidental consideration an historian might take a look at to see if it leads anywhere.

//
I can see the statement as a rhetorical device to focus attention in the direction of the angel.

Why plates?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Richard Bushman from his new book, “Joseph Smith’s Gold Plates”.



Regards,
MG

As reported by Fawn Brodie, "a Palmyra paper in 1821 had reported that diggers on the Erie Canal had unearthed "several brass plates" along with skeletons and fragments of pottery" (No Man Knows My History, 2nd ed., p. 35). For that matter, take a look at Dan Vogel's Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, which has plenty of material showing how the idea of the plates may have occurred to Joseph.

Joseph went to a lot of work and experienced a bunch of grief as he protected those ‘bogus’ plates.

https://latterdaysaintinsights.BYU.edu/ ... he-plates/

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.

Yep.

And the historical fact that Joseph didn't actually translate from them makes the entire plates story just a mcguffin. A MacGuffin is a plot device used in films or books that sets the characters into motion and drives the story. In this case, the plates were so important that Nephi murdered a man for them. That they had to be painstakingly carved and hiked up from Central America to upstate New York. All so that Joseph could not use them to create the Book of Mormon.

It strains credulity.

The plates were evidence to Joseph that the Book of Mormon had its source in an ancient setting. What if he had simply been told by an angel to go get his peep stone, get a hat, and create/receive a record of a chosen/fallen people?

The record/plates needed to be in/at play as the ‘artifact’ or catalyst which acted as the ‘hands on’ source. How they interfaced with the translation process is secondary.

The fact that there were plates, along with the angel, gave an absolute confirmation to Joseph that what he was called to do and the sacrifices he would experience were centered in and originated with God.

I think that is why we see no evidence of Joseph ever backtracking on his story and/or the sincerity in which he carried out his work and communicated with others. Especially Emma.

He had seen the plates. He had seen the angel. He knew it. And more importantly he knew that God knew it.

The plates were KEY.

They acted as the physical and tangible evidence to Joseph that he was called to the work of the Lord. Along with the First Vision the plates gave knowledge, to Joseph, that he was called to the work.

And he never denied that testimony.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

This might be worth the read:

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms

Regards,
MG