Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

[sock puppet]

He is subject to the agency of created beings. He's not working alone. God is love. I personally don't think or even consider that God doesn't love me. If that is something you are willing to question that does open up a can of worms.

If God is love, however, then this "contingency" thing you're concerned with having to do with agency/choice doesn't have the negative features you might otherwise throw into it.

At least that's what I think. I suppose I could change my mind if convinced otherwise

Regards,
MG

So contingency is a metaphysical term that means that an object is dependent on something other than itself for existence. This means then that the object is mutable. Mutability means that this object changes.

In the metaphysical realm of god, this means then that if Elohim the head of the Mormon pantheon of exalted men and women, is subject to the will of other beings, he is not omniscient nor omnipotent. Which means he cannot be god.

and

... if Elohim the head of the Mormon pantheon of exalted men and women, is subject to the will of other beings, he is not omniscient nor omnipotent. Which means he cannot be god.

I have to say that the impression I have formed from non-systematic observation of Mormon god-talk over the years is that their deity differs in essential respects from the deity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

I'm not sure whether this difference is intentional on the part of Mormonism's founder, or whether it is simply what follows from trying to make overall sense out of a large number of statements made by him on particular occasions for different particular purposes.

The Mormon concept of God varies dramatically from that of mainstream Christianity. Mormon God, the one to which we are privy in a line stretching back in time forming an infinite regression. Mormon God is more just our most immediate forerunner. Ref. The King Follett Sermon. He may have organized earth and then organized ideas into intelligences, then into spirits. But Mormon God did not create space. Mormon God has to obey certain basics that we too deal with in our existence in the universe. Mormon God is not all powerful. Omniscient? Maybe, but not necessarily so. Benevolent? Not if you read the Book of Mormon and Old Testament. Mormon God is morally flawed, as evidenced by the inexplicable 1947 "commandment from the Lord" about continuing the denial of blacks from the priesthood and temples. Maybe it was Mormon God then that Joan Osborne sang about:

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryna make his way home?

[Moksha]

Golden Plates to the left
Golden Plates to the right
Stand up, sit down
Fight, Fight, Fight
Go Joseph!

[Marcus]

That looks to me to be an accurate reading of what MG asserted, and the logical conclusion that stems from it.


To a normal, intellectually honest individual that understands logic, that’s correct. Unfortunately the SLC LDS Church is neither of those things. The SLC LDS Church reserves the right to pick and choose, to be inconsistent, and to not practice what they preach - as an example they preach that members should declare their income and pay an honest and full tithe to the Church, whilst they simultaneously devised a decades-long dishonest scheme to avoid declaring their income Church’s honest income so as to avoid paying an honest tax.

If you are looking for intellectual honesty, integrity, consistency, logic, and reason, from Church leaders or online defenders of the Church, then you’re going to come up empty. Every. Single. Time.

I’m gonna lay my cards out on the table and say I’m a Presbyterian in one of the towns scheduled to receive the “gift” of a Mormon temple. I was fine to leave LDS alone and engage in good faith friendly discussion until this aggressive and confrontational tone they’ve taken everywhere and with everyone. Especially with regard to building their temples and taking that tack that anyone who disagrees with them in any form is a bigot and persecuting them.

This failure to think logically, consistently, and systematically you’ve pointed out is baffling to me. The addition of arrogance and confrontational tone to this open deception practiced by them, has made me more negative towards them than apathetic as I was before.

Oh no, I feel for you. A temple was proposed for my state and I actually looked up the town out of a similar worry. And IHQ is exactly right:

Yes, the SLC LDS Church equates freedom of religion to mean it can do what it wants, when it wants, where it wants, and to whomever it pleases. And if people complain, they’ll sue them into submission. And let’s, for the sake of argument that they don’t mean to be like that. They aren’t even bothered that that’s how they come across.

Bullies deserve to be fought every step of the way. And the Church is definitely a bully.

I was horrified to see the LDS church recently try to bully a small town, the size of mine. Their methods are indeed confrontational and aggressively arrogant, and frankly, execrable. Not anything like what you would expect from a respectable religious group, but for Mormons, it seems to be standard fare.

Please, keep us in the loop with your town's situation, many here empathize and we will be supportive in any way we can. There is also a vast reservoir of knowledge about LDS process here, please feel free to ask any questions you may have. We'll be happy to help.

[Marcus]

Mormon god's revelations are simply unreliable, absent all sorts of excuses, special pleadings, and "interpretations" with no better foundation than the revelations themselves.

Edit to fix typo

That sums it up quite well.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

This is an example of you being rude towards another poster MG. Maybe, instead of criticising Malkie personally, you could instead address his conclusion objectively, and demonstrate that Mormon god’s revelations have been reliable, and don’t need special pleadings nor excuses.

I think I've already outlined my thoughts in regards to revelation earlier in this thread. When you say that revelations have to be reliable I'm not quite sure that what you think this means dovetails with what I think revelation (pg. 4 of this thread) is and what it entails.

Regards,
MG

Look. Let’s just have a moment of honesty for once. Had you lived in the polygamy era in the Utah territory, you, MG, would’ve been all in on marrying and damned kids. If there’s one thing that I’m more sure of than the sun rising in the east and setting in the west, is that you would’ve enthusiastically sought out some kids to marry in order to “F” ‘em. That mountain west sex cult would’ve been your cup of iced tea.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

The Mormon concept of God varies dramatically from that of mainstream Christianity. Mormon God, the one to which we are privy in a line stretching back in time forming an infinite regression.

In my mind, if you're going to believe in a creator God, this is the only concept that makes sense. It makes for a dynamic and ever changing/evolving universe(s) . You are proposing a God who is ultimately alone in the universe who sits around eternity upon eternity?

Mormon God is more just our most immediate forerunner. Ref. The King Follett Sermon. He may have organized earth and then organized ideas into intelligences, then into spirits.

Ideas into intelligences? Where did you get that?

But Mormon God did not create space.

Another way of saying God did not create eternity. Eternity always was. What other alternative do you have in mind?

Mormon God has to obey certain basics that we too deal with in our existence in the universe.

To say that there are not laws that govern the universe is rather simplistic and unreasonable. The universe and our planet and everything in between...us...seems to operate within certain scalable laws. And we're still trying to get at the 'meat' of it at the quantum level.

Mormon God is not all powerful. Omniscient? Maybe, but not necessarily so. Benevolent? Not if you read the Book of Mormon and Old Testament. Mormon God is morally flawed, as evidenced by the inexplicable 1947 "commandment from the Lord" about continuing the denial of blacks from the priesthood and temples. Maybe it was Mormon God then that Joan Osborne sang about:

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryna make his way home?

I think that Osborne (I like that song) may have been partially aware of the fact that God, in order to be God, would have had to KNOW what it was like to be "one of us". And for us, it is the case that God is "all powerful", "Omniscient", and that He loves us beyond all else. This just didn't happen. It was a process in which God came to a place eons of time ago where (Mormon doctrine) He stood among those that were in His midst and saw that he was "greater than they all" and organized a system by which ALL of his companion spirits/intelligences could become like Him.

He became God. He had the ability to guide and direct a universe of souls to a place of greater good and light...and eternal progression.

Correct me if I've overstepped on any doctrinal position that the church has...but I think this comes close.

sock puppet, your alternative to a creator God is what?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Look. Let’s just have a moment of honesty for once.

How about all the time? That's my intention/practice.

I was being honest on pg.4 where I described what I think revelation entails.

Are you saying I was dishonest? If so, why do you say that?

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

The Mormon concept of God varies dramatically from that of mainstream Christianity.

You are proposing a God who is ultimately alone in the universe who sits around eternity upon eternity?

This is a gross simplification of what most Christians mean when they say God. To respond in kind to illustrate what you’re doing:

You are proposing a Mormon God with a physical body who has to sit on the toilet several times a day, if he is eating enough fiber?

Does he sometimes reminisce fondly about the time he physically impregnated the 14 year old Mary to produce Jesus?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Look. Let’s just have a moment of honesty for once.

How about all the time? That's my intention/practice.

I was being honest on pg.4 where I described what I think revelation entails.

Are you saying I was dishonest? If so, why do you say that?

Regards,
MG

I just want to point out MG’s tacit admission he would’ve screwed kids.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

How about all the time? That's my intention/practice.

I was being honest on pg.4 where I described what I think revelation entails.

Are you saying I was dishonest? If so, why do you say that?

Regards,
MG

I just want to point out MG’s tacit admission he would’ve screwed kids.

- Doc

What would this place be without Doc? We've missed you!

Regards,
MG