The Mormon God and Conditional Love

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_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

And I stand by my experience and what I said.


Whatever.



We can fight forever,


Ok

you can spark debates you cannot uphold, it's all a great big merry go round.


I sparked one debate with you. I concede that your knowledge of Bible history, background, culture and all it superior to mine. I do not concede, nor have I on that thread, that LDS ever claim that all LDS doctrine is found in the Bible, nor that there is anything that I can think of that LDS do not believe that is in the Bible though interpretation varies.



I've heard the remark from LDS who disparage that which not of their faith before that they "have friends" (do they know what you think of their God) in certain faiths, walks of life, in one guy's case (Leeuniverse) sexual orientation and race. There's always an excuse.



I am not sure I follow you. I have spent a lot of time with others of other faiths and in trying to understand what they believe. I correct LDS people when the mis-represent the trinity and classify it in a modalistic way, I correct them when they accuse evangelicals of believing in cheap grace and saying I BELIEVE Then using it as a license to sin.

You can continue in your stereo typing of me, and you are just as bad as what you think I am doing-which I am not. I don;t care.

How you view God will tell whether or not you view God to be a god of love.



I have not told you how I view God yet. I have simple asked if the God of various beliefs is an unconditional loving God.

Regardless of religion. Even though I am evangelical, and hence my religion is hateful according to your standards,



I did not say that evangelical Christianity is hateful Don't put words in my mouth. I just asked if the God of evangelical Christianity loves unconditionally. In my experience with what many of that persuasion have shared with me I would have to say no to that question. That is all.

I believe in a God that loves universally, across religions, race, etc.


Well me too. How about that. We agree on something.


You haven't met all of us, but I understand, again, that to justify your stance, you have to limit your experiences to just those who have put a bad taste in your mouth. It's ok


As I have told you before I am happy to learn more. I do not think my experience with EVs is very limited though.

How about we start with a popular cultural view of God in evangelical Christianity. Have you read the Left Behind Series. If yes, how accurate does this book portray the character of God and his potential dealings with humans in the end times? If it accurately reflects doctrine about this what conclusion would one come to about whether this God loves unconditionally?

If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.



What's TULIP, Jason?

I've never heard of this.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

liz3564 wrote:
If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.



What's TULIP, Jason?

I've never heard of this.


It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.



Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.

Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Jason Bourne wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.



What's TULIP, Jason?

I've never heard of this.


It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.



Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.

Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


Wow! That sounds like a more hopeless religion that ours! LOL ;)

At least if you're LDS, we believe that everyone has an opportunity to try. This sounds like there's really no point in being here, or doing anything. Either God chose you, or He didn't.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.



What's TULIP, Jason?

I've never heard of this.


It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.



Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.

Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


Wow! That sounds like a more hopeless religion that ours! LOL ;)

At least if you're LDS, we believe that everyone has an opportunity to try. This sounds like there's really no point in being here, or doing anything. Either God chose you, or He didn't.


That last bit sounds like "calling and election made sure" in the LDS faith. Supposedly those who have had their calling and election made sure will be exalted to the highest kingdom of the CK, no matter what they do for the rest of their lives.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

liz3564 wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.



What's TULIP, Jason?

I've never heard of this.


It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.



Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.

Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


Wow! That sounds like a more hopeless religion that ours! LOL ;)

At least if you're LDS, we believe that everyone has an opportunity to try. This sounds like there's really no point in being here, or doing anything. Either God chose you, or He didn't.



Well it always amazes me that there are a lot who believe TULIP and then tell LDS that the LDS GOd is a sucky God. But they will tell you that the Bible backs this idea of God up and that this is just they way it is and we as God's puny creations-or pieces of clay to be dashed at the potters whim-see Romans 9- have no say in the matter.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

That last bit sounds like "calling and election made sure" in the LDS faith. Supposedly those who have had their calling and election made sure will be exalted to the highest kingdom of the CK, no matter what they do for the rest of their lives


Well sort of, but the LDS calling and election is based on the person's faithfullness and given through the prophet, allegedly directed by God, not by God simply choosing it at the instant of creation.

Interestingly the LDS calling and election made sure has sure dropped out of site over the past 75 years and is rarely mentioned now. I asked someone I know in a temple presidency about this once and he seeemed to know little about it. But he may have been playing dumb with me to keep it under wraps.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Interestingly the LDS calling and election made sure has sure dropped out of site over the past 75 years and is rarely mentioned now. I asked someone I know in a temple presidency about this once and he seeemed to know little about it. But he may have been playing dumb with me to keep it under wraps.



There seems to be quite a bit of uncomfortable doctrine being "kept under raps" these days.

Unfortunately for the Church, a lot of it is being discovered by members via the Internet. ;)
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

I notice that the "God kills" site doesent mention the Global (Harmony) flood, nor the Egyptian army swallowed up by the Red Sea. Also lets not forget the 1/3 cast out with Lucifer for sideing against free agency. that's a spiritual death.

Sometimes people don't make it through the refiners fire. Sometimes people come out golden.

Its based on personal choice, not Gods choice.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:I notice that the "God kills" site doesent mention the Global (Harmony) flood, nor the Egyptian army swallowed up by the Red Sea. Also lets not forget the 1/3 cast out with Lucifer for sideing against free agency. that's a spiritual death.

Sometimes people don't make it through the refiners fire. Sometimes people come out golden.


That's the way I like my toast: golden.

Its based on personal choice, not Gods choice.


I agree.
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