Scratch's Blog wins Honorable Mention in MAD Ceremony

[_Mister Scratch]

No, Gaz---you misunderstand me. My criticism is that you continuously toss out scripture (as others in this thread have noted) often without seeming to even understand said scriptures. That is my criticism.

Again, for the third time, please show me an example of my misunderstanding of scripture.

For the umpteenth time, please show me one example that you *do* understand scripture!

Or unwilling. And why bother, Gaz? You have not demonstrate that you are capable of basic reading comprehension vis-a-vis many of these scriptures, so why should I even bother?

Same answer as above. Please illustrate your point. (That makes four requests now)

Gaz--- I already took the time to wade through your ridiculous and underdeveloped priesthood lesson. On top of that you have got Gramps and Fortigurn telling you that you are wrong. (What's that, like ninety times?) Go ahead and say it again, Gaz---argumentum ad nauseum sure is an effective rhetorical strategy!

You see? This is the essential problem, Gaz---and believe me, you have my sincere sympathy here. You yourself admit that you do a poor job of "presentation." Well, then, my dear friend, I ask you: How/why are we supposed to view you as being conversant in the Gospel if you cannot articulate your thoughts and feelings?

If I was that bad, then how do you know I got something wrong?

Well, okay---good point. But you are still in the position of not yet demonstrating your "great and mighty" understanding.

Your pathetic attempt to escape from your unfounded declaration is not going to work. Again I say, put up or shut up.

It's not unfounded! If you've totally and utterly failed to demonstrate clear and sophisticated standing, then I am well withing my rights to point this out. As to "put up or shut up", I went out of my way to go through your earlier post which you linked to. Where is your lengthy demonstration of your McConkie-caliber understanding?

In the earlier thread I called you a coward for not declareing what it is you believe in and not standing up for yourself. Since then I have given you multiple oportunities to prove me wrong and you have wriggled and squirmed your way out of every request.

Ironically, now that your supposedly "superior" TBM understanding has been called into question, you are "wriggling and squirming" pretty vigorously yourself!

Please stop acting like a worm and stand up for yourself. Scratch I want to be wrong about you, I honestly do, but thus far I have not been shown to be wrong.

Don't you know I am the devil, Gaz?

In your own words:

There is nothing cowardly about addressing the nature of faith.

Then do so.

Sorry, Gaz, but I am not really all that interested in doing so. Sure, there "is nothing cowardly," but that doesn't mean that it interesting or entertaining to me, per so.

I have used every method I can think of to try to get you to do this. The closest you have come was on Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:45 pm, and your answers there were shorter than my commentary in the Christmas post I made.

I asked you , since you seem to not think of God as Physical, to do some form of commentary on Luke 24:36-53.

Gaz---are you kidding me? Do you have any evidence that God is "physical" in a material sense? Have you ever shaken HF's hand? At best, the belief that God is physical is a matter of faith. THAT has been my point all along. You have zero evidence that God is physical. Hence, this is a matter of faith.

If you are uncomfortable with this, here is a short list of subjects that many people wonder about. Commenting on any of these would be interesting for anyone who enjoys discussing religious subjects.

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

6. what happens to babies who die?

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities?

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views?

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

If you don't want to comment on the resurrection, then please choose form any of these. Or choose your own. I just want to see you share three paragraphs or so on some doctrinal point.

See my answers on the thread begun by Liz.

Spending your time tearing down and picking apart other people is a piss poor way to post in a board entitled "Mormon discussions". Actually its poor form on any board. Please put your Charles Emerson Winchester III prose form to better use.
Gaz

What, are you advocating censorship, Gaz?

[_Mister Scratch]

Gaz:
"The answer I would present in the classroom is that Laws are both. They are Eternal if they come from God, and they are philosophies in the sence that they are a way of thinking that we can apply towards correct action. A Law that becomes a habit. This is how God is, He is perfect in being obedient to these universal laws. The Laws arent simply on paper, they are a part of his character, and should be a part of ours."


Scratch:
"Sounds like you're saying these laws aren't real."

I think that this example of Gaz's priesthood lesson was probably a little unfair to utilize as an example.

Why? This was the post that he himself linked to as evidence for his "excellent" exegetical skills. If you read the other links, you will see that they are all essentially the same: Gaz cites scripture, Gaz quotes from the Brethren, Gaz offers up one-line "readings."

[_Gazelam]

Gaz---are you kidding me? Do you have any evidence that God is "physical" in a material sense? Have you ever shaken HF's hand? At best, the belief that God is physical is a matter of faith. THAT has been my point all along. You have zero evidence that God is physical. Hence, this is a matter of faith.

Ha Ha Ha. Scratch, how is it possible that your a member of a doctrinal discussion board and are so unstudied regarding basic doctrines? Besides the numerous accounts of God speaking with man face to face, having the son on his right hand, walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden, there is the account of Christ eating with the Apostles as a resurrected being and having Thomas feel the marks of the nails in his hands and feet as well as thrust his hands into the spear wound in his side.

All of us who agreed to come to earth will receive a resurrected body.(1 Cor. 15:22, Abr. 3:26) The state of that body is directly related to the degree one allowed the Holy Ghost to purify and sanctify them in this life. (D&C 88:11-43) This is what was spoken about by Paul in his leter to the Corinthians (chp.15:40-44) I recommend Scratch that you study the entire Chapter of Corinthians.

Christ did nothing save that he saw his Father do it before him. (john 5:19) This includes laying down his life and taking it up again. Christ is one with the Father, and if Christ was resurrected then so was the Father. And it is their desire that we all be resurrected and that we share in their glory with them. (Moses 1:39) And what ius life eternal? Why the mention of immortality? Because the body and soul connected are the Soul of Man (D&C 88:15).

As Isaiah said, quoting the Savior, (26:19) " Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

We are to be one with God the Father, as Christ is one with the Father. And as Christ has a body of flesh and bone, so shall we shed our flesh and blood to take on a glorious body of flesh and bone, sanctified and made immortal. And in this we become as the Father if we have put forth the effort in being obedient to the teaching of Jesus Christ and made our temples clean that the Holy Ghost could dwell withen us and sanctify us. (John 17:19-23)

"The Lord is our God and it is He whom we serve; and we say to the whole world that he is a tangible Being. We have a God with ears, eyes, nose, mouth; He can and does speak. He has arms, hands, body, legs and feet; He talks and walks; and we are formed in his likeness. The good book - the Bible, tells us what kind of character our Heavenly Father is. In the first chapter of Genesis and the 17th verse, speaking of the Lord createing men, it reads as plain as it can read, "and He created man in His own image and likeness;" and if He created Adam and Eve in His own image, the whole human family are like Him. - Brigham Young, JD 13:308-309, November 13, 1870

See my answers on the thread begun by Liz.

I look forward to it.

What, are you advocating censorship, Gaz?

No, I am advocateing character.

[_Dr. Shades]

Gazelam:

Just a friendly reminder, but remember to drop the "e" before adding "ing."

Thanks!

[_Gazelam]

Liz has nominated herself to be my personal proofreader. Maybe I should take her up on her offer.

what do you charge Liz? Do you take paypal? : )

[_Mister Scratch]

Gaz---are you kidding me? Do you have any evidence that God is "physical" in a material sense? Have you ever shaken HF's hand? At best, the belief that God is physical is a matter of faith. THAT has been my point all along. You have zero evidence that God is physical. Hence, this is a matter of faith.

Ha Ha Ha. Scratch, how is it possible that your a member of a doctrinal discussion board and are so unstudied regarding basic doctrines?

2 points: A) I have never claimed anywhere that I have a "deep" understanding of doctrine; and B) Where does it saying anywhere that MDB is purely a "doctrinal discussion board"?

Besides the numerous accounts

Anecdotal evidence is not "material evidence," Gaz. If I told you that I spoke face-to-face with HF yesterday, and that he told me the LDS Church was in a state of apostasy, would you believe me?

of God speaking with man face to face, having the son on his right hand, walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden, there is the account of Christ eating with the Apostles as a resurrected being and having Thomas feel the marks of the nails in his hands and feet as well as thrust his hands into the spear wound in his side.

Again: purely anecdotal. However, perhaps your buddy James Cameron has found material evidence which will help prove or disprove stuff which until now has resided totally in the realm of faith.

All of us who agreed to come to earth will receive a resurrected body.(1 Cor. 15:22, Abr. 3:26) The state of that body is directly related to the degree one allowed the Holy Ghost to purify and sanctify them in this life. (D&C 88:11-43) This is what was spoken about by Paul in his leter to the Corinthians (chp.15:40-44) I recommend Scratch that you study the entire Chapter of Corinthians.

This is not material evidence. It is thus a matter of faith.

Christ did nothing save that he saw his Father do it before him. (john 5:19) This includes laying down his life and taking it up again. Christ is one with the Father, and if Christ was resurrected then so was the Father. And it is their desire that we all be resurrected and that we share in their glory with them. (Moses 1:39) And what ius life eternal? Why the mention of immortality? Because the body and soul connected are the Soul of Man (D&C 88:15).

This last bit is a tautology; also, none of this constitutes material evidence.

As Isaiah said, quoting the Savior, (26:19) " Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

Once more: this is not material evidence. Do you know of a resurrected body that you and I can go take a look at, Gaz? So that you can substantiate what is rightly a matter of faith with material evidence?

We are to be one with God the Father, as Christ is one with the Father. And as Christ has a body of flesh and bone, so shall we shed our flesh and blood to take on a glorious body of flesh and bone, sanctified and made immortal. And in this we become as the Father if we have put forth the effort in being obedient to the teaching of Jesus Christ and made our temples clean that the Holy Ghost could dwell withen us and sanctify us. (John 17:19-23)

The kids can sing along at home: This is not material evidence.

"The Lord is our God and it is He whom we serve; and we say to the whole world that he is a tangible Being. We have a God with ears, eyes, nose, mouth; He can and does speak. He has arms, hands, body, legs and feet; He talks and walks; and we are formed in his likeness. The good book - the Bible, tells us what kind of character our Heavenly Father is. In the first chapter of Genesis and the 17th verse, speaking of the Lord createing men, it reads as plain as it can read, "and He created man in His own image and likeness;" and if He created Adam and Eve in His own image, the whole human family are like Him. - Brigham Young, JD 13:308-309, November 13, 1870

This is not material evidence.

See my answers on the thread begun by Liz.

I look forward to it.

What, are you advocating censorship, Gaz?

No, I am advocateing character.[/quote]

What "character"? Insisting that matters of faith are somehow "real" in the material sense? If that constitutes "character" for you, then I have some swamp land I'd like to sell you....

[_Gazelam]

Am I to imply from your answers both here and in the thread begun by Liz that you are an Atheist? You seem to have no foundation to whatever faith you may or may not have. In fact it seems that you have never studied at all.

If you deny a physical God that you can touch and feel, you first have to meet the prerequisites. A natural man cannot dwell in the presence of God. There is a short list of those who stood in the presence of God; Adam, Moses, Abraham, Christ, Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow. You must first be a man of faith and integrity. You are invited to be in the presence of God in that you may have the company of the Holy Ghost, He is less demanding in the enjoyment of his company. To share his company you need only offer a prayer in faith. Are you able to do so? If you are then you may begin to build up a foundation that will lead to the physical manifestation you desire. Every Prophet both past and present testify to what I have just said.

This last bit is a tautology;

If you read the scripture I sighted along with my comment, you will see that what I said isn't tautology at all, but the words of Christ.


In regards to character: You seem to spend your time on these boards looking for ways to tear down and destroy anyone who promotes faith and values. Is it any wonder that you were thrown off of the FAIR boards? You brought nothing to the table from the evidence that I have seen here. (Having never seen you in action there I can only go off of what I view here.) Do oyu ever promote anything in regards to faith, or correct viewpoints? A religious discussion board is a place to seek out correct viewpoints and ideas. All I see from you is personal attacks. I was hoping to hear you state something positive in the way of a personal testimony, but in that you seem incapable.

You have my pity.

Gaz

[_Mister Scratch]

Am I to imply from your answers both here and in the thread begun by Liz that you are an Atheist? You seem to have no foundation to whatever faith you may or may not have. In fact it seems that you have never studied at all.

If you deny a physical God that you can touch and feel,

I am not denying this, Gaz. I am saying that this is a matter of faith. Why do you have such a problem with that statement? Odd, too, that you think it is necessary to couch your remarks in personal attack.

you first have to meet the prerequisites. A natural man cannot dwell in the presence of God. There is a short list of those who stood in the presence of God; Adam, Moses, Abraham, Christ, Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow. You must first be a man of faith and integrity. You are invited to be in the presence of God in that you may have the company of the Holy Ghost, He is less demanding in the enjoyment of his company. To share his company you need only offer a prayer in faith. Are you able to do so? If you are then you may begin to build up a foundation that will lead to the physical manifestation you desire. Every Prophet both past and present testify to what I have just said.

And yet where is the material evidence? Again, my friend: this is a matter of faith rather than logical, material reality.

This last bit is a tautology;

If you read the scripture I sighted along with my comment, you will see that what I said isn't tautology at all, but the words of Christ.

Just because Christ said it does not change the fact that it is a tautology.

In regards to character: You seem to spend your time on these boards looking for ways to tear down and destroy anyone who promotes faith and values.

No, I criticize those who want to "promote faith and values" at the expense of truth.

Is it any wonder that you were thrown off of the FAIR boards?

I was removed from FAIR after besting Prof. Peterson in a series of debates. He finally resorted to very cheap and inaccurate smear tactics in order to get me banned.

You brought nothing to the table from the evidence that I have seen here. (Having never seen you in action there I can only go off of what I view here.) Do oyu ever promote anything in regards to faith, or correct viewpoints?

I definitely promote "correct viewpoints," however I see faith as being primarily a personal matter, and in fact think that "promoting" it can cheapen it somewhat. Do you see yourself as a kind of "used car salesman" for faith, Gaz?

A religious discussion board is a place to seek out correct viewpoints and ideas.

I agree.

All I see from you is personal attacks.

You have been engaging in plenty of personal attack yourself, Gaz.

I was hoping to hear you state something positive in the way of a personal testimony, but in that you seem incapable.

You have my pity.

Gaz

Look, it's clear that your still smarting because I accused you of not understanding the scriptures you continuously quote. No need to be upset, Gaz! No need to continue with this blubbering! Just bear your testimony, bow your head, say a prayer, and all will be well again! Silly facts and truth are unimportant in the light of faith anyways, right?

[_Yoda]

OK, boys...let's take a different tact in looking at this.

Gaz, Scratchy...I love you both. You're driving me crazy! LOL

I think that both of you, in your own way, have proven a point that everyone can agree upon.

You can't argue faith. Pure and simple. You can't argue faith. Everyone is entitled to his/her own faith and beliefs. It is personal. It's like arguing feelings. It's impossible to argue.

My faith may differ from Gaz's or Scratch's, but I RESPECT their right to their faith and their beliefs.

[_Gazelam]

Scratch:

I am not denying this, Gaz. I am saying that this is a matter of faith. Why do you have such a problem with that statement? Odd, too, that you think it is necessary to couch your remarks in personal attack.

What personal attack. I was merely making an observation. If you took it as an insult the observation must have hit too close to home. My point I am making is that it doesent have to be a matter of faith, you can know for a fact, that's the entire point of the Holy Ghost, that's his whole job.

And yet where is the material evidence? Again, my friend: this is a matter of faith rather than logical, material reality

The company of the Holy Ghost fills a person with spiritual light, and another name for the Holy Ghost is the comforter, becasue he gives a person that feeling and assurance and warmth. Is that physical enough for you? I know from my experience that the gospel is true, because the words of the prophets were fullfilled when I put them to the test.

No, I criticize those who want to "promote faith and values" at the expense of truth.

If you yourself don't know what truth is, please explain how you do this.

I see faith as being primarily a personal matter, and in fact think that "promoting" it can cheapen it somewhat.

I remember on my mission I was asked by my trainer, at the train station when I first arrived in Scotland, to walk up to a stranger and ask him if we could come to his home and teach him. His answer was "I think faith is a personal matter and I don't like to discuss it." That was my first experience in sharing the gospel with someone on my mission.

what shape do oyu think the world would be in if all of the prophets, or even Christ himself, had that same attitude? "Well I know how I feel about it, but I don't think I should share my feelings, because ultimately its a personal matter." Its a good thing Moses didn't feel that way, All of the Jews would have remained in captivity in Egypt. If Christ felt that way there would be no Plan of Redemption.

The fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as absolute truth, It is an absolute truth that Christ is the great redeemer. It is an absolute truth that it is the Fathers work and glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. It is an absolute truth that baptism is not recognized unless it is administered by proper authority. It is an absolute truth that Joseph Smith was visited by the Father and the Son. Kind of narrows the field of correct views rather quickly doesent it?

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It is not life eternal to know opinions and half truths.

Silly facts and truth are unimportant in the light of faith anyways, right?

Wrong