Is the Mormon Leadership in a hidden panic?

[_Mary]

Why me, with all respect. I think the church itself must take some of the blame for the disillusionment church members feel when they start to appreciate the complexity of Joseph Smith's character?

I 'know' that Bushman's work is trying to address this issue in a sensitive manner, and it's been a long time coming. Joseph Smith was a human being first, and despite the canonical account of his life having no 'great sins', it was probably a little more complex than that.

Joseph Smith is/was a human being. He shouldn't be used as a role model, neither should Brigham Young or any other of the early leaders of the Mormon Church. There's an inherent danger in exhalting a person to a position that they would never have wished to have. (Didn't Joseph Smith say something to that effect at some point) We all want idols, someone to look up to, but Joseph Smith isn't one and never was.

Just my opinion.

Mary

[_Sethbag]

Yes, Seth, you are abolutely right. Joseph Smith was a sexaholic sex fiend who lusted after young women.

I see you're seeing the light on this one at last. Not sure what else to call a guy who can't seem to stop himself from going behind his wife's back to have sex with the teenage daughters and even wives of his closest supporters and friends. I guess one such description might be "Prophet of God"?

Yes, seth, you are abolutely right, Joseph Smith was a horrible man of immense proportions.

Now you're stretching. His adultery might have been egregious, but that doesn't mean that there weren't any good facets to his character at the same time. I have known people who comitted adultery and they were not otherwise evil or horrible people of immense proportions. I'm not sure why you and other LDS defenders insist that if Joseph committed rampant adultery, he must otherwise have been utterly demonic.

Yes, seth, now that you have applied the supreme critic word of 'cog-dis' to desribe the LDS experience, I can see that you are now towing the critic Party line. Did you have a graduation ceremony??

If the shoe fits, wear it. I'm at a loss to understand what other mental gymnastics can allow religious people who are so utterly horrified at the thought of pictures of women in bras and panties appearing in the ads with the Sunday paper, and think that masturbation is second only to murder, and a justifiably reason for someone to get divorced from their spouse, and all the other sex phobias present in the LDS church, and at the same time not blink an eye at the idea that their beloved Prophet of God Joseph Smith would go tell the young daughters of his closest friends and supporters that God had given them to him, and that an angel would kill him if he didn't marry them, and thus pressure them into "marrying" him and sleeping with him. And that he'd do this behind Emma's back, because Emma not supporting Joseph in this was against God's will, so he was justified in deceiving her. What other mental state can lead a person to read the "Miracle of Forgiveness" and believe it wholeheartedly, and then read a letter Joseph Smith wrote to one of his "plural wives" warning her only to come over if Emma wasn't going to be around, and that this was his version of "our little secret", a secret kept from his own wife. Yes, I stick with the notion that cognitive dissodance must be in play here. How can it be otherwise? I fell in love with a sister missionary on my mission and wished to persue a relationship with her after my mission, and I told my mom that she had been a convert just a year or two before her mission, and my mom spoke in a low voice, ominously, that I'd better take into consideration that she might not be a virgin, as if she were warning me off against the worst possible thing imaginable. And yet people like my mom hear the story of Emma Smith catching Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger rolling in the hay in a compromising position, and with a stiff upper lip declare that this must have been Joseph's first "plural marriage". Forget that the whole concept of the New and Everlasting Covenant which underpins the LDS teaching of polygamy hadn't been restored yet, it's impossible that this could have been a "sealing", there's no reliable record of a marriage ceremony having taken place, Emma obviously didn't know about it until she found Joseph in the sack with Fanny (in other words, if this was the start of plural marriage, he started it off with deception from his own legal wife), the fact that his own co-elder and fellow church founder Oliver Cowdery described it as a "filthy, nasty affair" and that it otherwise caused scandal amongst the saints, etc. Forget all of this, because it's obvious to an TBM that since it's Joseph Smith we're talking about here, it must have been commanded by God.

Can you tell me one good reason why God Almighty, a God of order, a God of righteousness, honesty, and Truth, would "command" Joseph Smith to secretly take the 16-year old girl living in his household as a plural wife, without the knowledge or, heaven forbid, the consent of his actual legal wife Emma, without her family's consent, without any documented ceremony, without it being a sealing or otherwise under the New and Everlasting Covenant, etc. and actually have sex with her? And in the barn, of all places? Can you think of one single teaching you've ever experienced in the LDS church, not that you've even been to church in 30 years, but with all the LDS teaching you've read about on the Internet, can you think of one single lesson or "Truth" about God that would lead you to believe that this same God, whose house is called a "house of order", would "command" Joseph to do this?

However, seth, as you know your interpretation of Joseph Smith can be wrong.

I know that the interpretations which validate Joseph Smith's actions all seem to contradict what I learned about God and his view on the sex act and the sanctity of marriage in all my life experience growing up in the church. So really, it's one or the other, but not both.

And of course, you know also that the reasons that you embrace such ideas now is because you need to reaffirm your lack of faith in Joseph Smith and in the church.

These ideas are not embraced to reaffirm my lack of faith in Joseph Smith - they helped cause my lack of faith in Joseph Smith. How can you not see that if were not for Joseph Smith's egregious practice of rampant secret wife-taking and, and other things such as Joseph Smith apparently making up the Book of Abraham and passing it off as a translation of the papyrus obtained from a traveling showman, and other such things, I would still be a Joseph Smith believer today? I believed in Joseph Smith. I believed him, and unlike you I actually attended church faithfully, read my scriptures, paid my tithing, went to the temple from time to time, etc.

However, I can challenge you to post your post over on MAD if you haven't done so already. It would be interesting to see the reaction.

They don't want to see a post like this on MAD, so I won't impose it on them. It's their board, their rules, and I'll respect them to the extent I can. I'm not sure what your point is, except maybe to dare me to go over to MAD and get myself banned. What would that accomplish? This board isn't MAD, this board's rules aren't MAD's rules, and so I'll post this over here, and not over there.

But thanks for the speculations that you so willingly gave. but as you know, speculation or intretation does not get you to first base automatically. You need to prove your interpretation that Joseph Smith was a monster as you described. Good luck with your research into Joseph Smith's heart and into his intent! And are you sure that he had sexual relations with these women??

Yes, I know Joseph Smith had sexual relations with these women. If he wasn't having sex with Fanny Alger when Emma caught them, what was the big deal about? Not to mention the affidavits of some of Joseph Smith's "plural wives" attesting to their having had sex with him, when Joseph Smith III went to Utah looking to prove that Joseph Smith hadn't practiced polygamy. Not to mention the descriptions in journal entries and letters describing Joseph Smith spending the night "as man and wife" with some wife or other of his. Not to mention the claims of at least one plural wife to have had a child by him. Do I have stained sheets and DNA tests proving that Joseph Smith had sex with each and every one of his plural "wives"? No. But there is ample proof that he had sex with quite a few of them, and there's no reason whatsoever to assume he didn't probably have sex with them all. And even if there were some small number of plural "wives" with whom he didn't actually ever have sex, that doesn't mitigate the many with whom he did.

Why Me, have you ever prayed to God and specifically asked God to reveal to you whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with any , or many, or all of his plural wives? Have you ever prayed to God and asked him if he had commanded Joseph Smith to have sex with Fanny Alger? Or is your certainty in this strictly a matter of the critics not holding a treasure trove of Joseph Smith's stained sheets that convinces you there's nothing here?

[_why me]

Why me, with all respect. I think the church itself must take some of the blame for the disillusionment church members feel when they start to appreciate the complexity of Joseph Smith's character?

I 'know' that Bushman's work is trying to address this issue in a sensitive manner, and it's been a long time coming. Joseph Smith was a human being first, and despite the canonical account of his life having no 'great sins', it was probably a little more complex than that.

Joseph Smith is/was a human being. He shouldn't be used as a role model, neither should Brigham Young or any other of the early leaders of the Mormon Church. There's an inherent danger in exhalting a person to a position that they would never have wished to have. (Didn't Joseph Smith say something to that effect at some point) We all want idols, someone to look up to, but Joseph Smith isn't one and never was.

Just my opinion.

Mary

Well, what human being is a role model? Difficult to find a role model. However, Joseph Smith was not perfect but he can be a role model of someone who started out as nothing and became something. That is a role model. And regardless of what the critics may think, he was quite successful in accomplishing what he needed to accomplish. He died young but accomplished a great deal for his age, especially when one considers the time period that he lived. And what he accomplished occured within two decades.

And he died for what he believed in and he died believing that he was doing god's work on earth. And regardless of his flaws, when he was murdered he left many people in mourning, including his wife, Emma. Now, to be loved by so many shows accomplishment. And likewise to be hated by so many, shows accomplishment, since it implies that he was an active human being doing what he believed to be right.

[_why me]

Why Me, have you ever prayed to God and specifically asked God to reveal to you whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with any , or many, or all of his plural wives? Have you ever prayed to God and asked him if he had commanded Joseph Smith to have sex with Fanny Alger? Or is your certainty in this strictly a matter of the critics not holding a treasure trove of Joseph Smith's stained sheets that convinces you there's nothing here?

Seth, it is not something that bothers me. Really, it doesn't. I don't know if he had sex with these women and I don't care. It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. I don't know what was in his heart and neither do you. But from what I know about him, it is unlikely that he had lust in his heart. And it is unlikely that he acted on his own lust. I would say that he acted according to what he believed was the word of god. And unless you have proof to refute my understanding I can say that you are just speculating as to his intentions. And since it is a free cyberworld out there, you can do it.

[_why me]

I see you're seeing the light on this one at last. Not sure what else to call a guy who can't seem to stop himself from going behind his wife's back to have sex with the teenage daughters and even wives of his closest supporters and friends. I guess one such description might be "Prophet of God"?

Why me wrote: Actually, seth I believe no such thing. I was only having a go with you. I do believe that Joseph Smith was an honorable man. He believed what he believed and died for those beliefs. I can find no fault with him, except that he was a human being and had human flaws. But who doesn't?

[_Sethbag]

Why Me, you've said some nice things about me in the past, and I appreciate it. You also seem like a decent chap. I really don't mean to be going at it with you like this in a way that will serve to make you and me into some kind of adversaries. I do have to say though, man, that it comes across very badly to those of us who were faithful, believing members in this church our whole lives until a year or so ago (or whenever it was for each particular critic, for me it's now going on a couple years ago when my mind finally clicked over from one side to the other) for you to admit that you haven't been active in the church for decades, that you violate various rules of the church, and otherwise don't live like a faithful member, and yet you start telling us what it is that we're trying to justify by believing how we do about Joseph Smith. I know what I believe about Joseph Smith, and I know why I believe it.

I had times when I was a teenager I'd read those passages in the Bible where it said if your eye offend thee, pluck it out, for it would be better to go to Heaven with one eye than be dragged down to Hell with two eyes. I'd wonder if I would be better off cutting off my Johnson, which in Mormonism was "offending" me, and go to Heaven dickless than be dragged down to hell with manhood intact. Thank God the natural man in me kept my sanity enough not to do something so stupid. But such was the nature of teaching with regards sexuality and the sanctity of it all, and of marriage, when I was young. And now I'm supposed to read that Emma Smith caught Joseph Smith having sex with the 16 year old girl who lived in their household, years before the sealing power and other facets of the New and Everlasting Covenant were restored to earth (as the story goes), with no credible account of a marriage ceremony, deceipt against Emma in the practice of it, his own co-founders believing he'd committed adultery, and just believe that God must have been OK with it, because, you know, it was Joseph Smith?

If God exists, he gave me a brain and a Johnson, and intended me to use them both.

With all due respect man, if you believe the LDS story is so well supported, and you have such a testimony, why won't you become active, forsake everything the church doesn't want you doing, start paying your tithing, and start acting like it? With all this talk about who is justifying what and why, can it be that you're justifying your lifetime of unfaithfulness towards the church in a Pascalesque wager that at the last day, at least you defended the faith? Seriously, what gives?

[_harmony]

Well, what human being is a role model? Difficult to find a role model. However, Joseph Smith was not perfect but he can be a role model of someone who started out as nothing and became something.

He started out a con man, and he ended up a con man. He lied and cheated his way through life, and in the end, he died because of his inability to follow his own rules. His crowning achievement is tainted, as is just about every other thing he accomplished. He founded a religion that has grown into something he would not recognize, through nothing that he did. The LDS church today does not owe it's attributes to its founder; those who believed in Joseph's story built it into what it is today. Let to his own devices, Joseph tried very hard to destroy it.

[_Seven]

Yes, seth, now that you have applied the supreme critic word of 'cog-dis' to desribe the LDS experience, I can see that you are now towing the critic Party line. Did you have a graduation ceremony??

If the shoe fits, wear it. I'm at a loss to understand what other mental gymnastics can allow religious people who are so utterly horrified at the thought of pictures of women in bras and panties appearing in the ads with the Sunday paper, and think that masturbation is second only to murder, and a justifiably reason for someone to get divorced from their spouse, and all the other sex phobias present in the LDS church, and at the same time not blink an eye at the idea that their beloved Prophet of God Joseph Smith would go tell the young daughters of his closest friends and supporters that God had given them to him, and that an angel would kill him if he didn't marry them, and thus pressure them into "marrying" him and sleeping with him. And that he'd do this behind Emma's back, because Emma not supporting Joseph in this was against God's will, so he was justified in deceiving her. What other mental state can lead a person to read the "Miracle of Forgiveness" and believe it wholeheartedly, and then read a letter Joseph Smith wrote to one of his "plural wives" warning her only to come over if Emma wasn't going to be around, and that this was his version of "our little secret", a secret kept from his own wife. Yes, I stick with the notion that cognitive dissodance must be in play here. How can it be otherwise? I fell in love with a sister missionary on my mission and wished to persue a relationship with her after my mission, and I told my mom that she had been a convert just a year or two before her mission, and my mom spoke in a low voice, ominously, that I'd better take into consideration that she might not be a virgin, as if she were warning me off against the worst possible thing imaginable. And yet people like my mom hear the story of Emma Smith catching Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger rolling in the hay in a compromising position, and with a stiff upper lip declare that this must have been Joseph's first "plural marriage". Forget that the whole concept of the New and Everlasting Covenant which underpins the LDS teaching of polygamy hadn't been restored yet, it's impossible that this could have been a "sealing", there's no reliable record of a marriage ceremony having taken place, Emma obviously didn't know about it until she found Joseph in the sack with Fanny (in other words, if this was the start of plural marriage, he started it off with deception from his own legal wife), the fact that his own co-elder and fellow church founder Oliver Cowdery described it as a "filthy, nasty affair" and that it otherwise caused scandal amongst the saints, etc. Forget all of this, because it's obvious to an TBM that since it's Joseph Smith we're talking about here, it must have been commanded by God.

Can you tell me one good reason why God Almighty, a God of order, a God of righteousness, honesty, and Truth, would "command" Joseph Smith to secretly take the 16-year old girl living in his household as a plural wife, without the knowledge or, heaven forbid, the consent of his actual legal wife Emma, without her family's consent, without any documented ceremony, without it being a sealing or otherwise under the New and Everlasting Covenant, etc. and actually have sex with her? And in the barn, of all places? Can you think of one single teaching you've ever experienced in the LDS church, not that you've even been to church in 30 years, but with all the LDS teaching you've read about on the Internet, can you think of one single lesson or "Truth" about God that would lead you to believe that this same God, whose house is called a "house of order", would "command" Joseph to do this?

However, seth, as you know your interpretation of Joseph Smith can be wrong.

I know that the interpretations which validate Joseph Smith's actions all seem to contradict what I learned about God and his view on the sex act and the sanctity of marriage in all my life experience growing up in the church. So really, it's one or the other, but not both.

And of course, you know also that the reasons that you embrace such ideas now is because you need to reaffirm your lack of faith in Joseph Smith and in the church.

These ideas are not embraced to reaffirm my lack of faith in Joseph Smith - they helped cause my lack of faith in Joseph Smith. How can you not see that if were not for Joseph Smith's egregious practice of rampant secret wife-taking and, and other things such as Joseph Smith apparently making up the Book of Abraham and passing it off as a translation of the papyrus obtained from a traveling showman, and other such things, I would still be a Joseph Smith believer today? I believed in Joseph Smith. I believed him, and unlike you I actually attended church faithfully, read my scriptures, paid my tithing, went to the temple from time to time, etc.

However, I can challenge you to post your post over on MAD if you haven't done so already. It would be interesting to see the reaction.

They don't want to see a post like this on MAD, so I won't impose it on them. It's their board, their rules, and I'll respect them to the extent I can. I'm not sure what your point is, except maybe to dare me to go over to MAD and get myself banned. What would that accomplish? This board isn't MAD, this board's rules aren't MAD's rules, and so I'll post this over here, and not over there.

But thanks for the speculations that you so willingly gave. but as you know, speculation or intretation does not get you to first base automatically. You need to prove your interpretation that Joseph Smith was a monster as you described. Good luck with your research into Joseph Smith's heart and into his intent! And are you sure that he had sexual relations with these women??

Yes, I know Joseph Smith had sexual relations with these women. If he wasn't having sex with Fanny Alger when Emma caught them, what was the big deal about? Not to mention the affidavits of some of Joseph Smith's "plural wives" attesting to their having had sex with him, when Joseph Smith III went to Utah looking to prove that Joseph Smith hadn't practiced polygamy. Not to mention the descriptions in journal entries and letters describing Joseph Smith spending the night "as man and wife" with some wife or other of his. Not to mention the claims of at least one plural wife to have had a child by him. Do I have stained sheets and DNA tests proving that Joseph Smith had sex with each and every one of his plural "wives"? No. But there is ample proof that he had sex with quite a few of them, and there's no reason whatsoever to assume he didn't probably have sex with them all. And even if there were some small number of plural "wives" with whom he didn't actually ever have sex, that doesn't mitigate the many with whom he did.

Why Me, have you ever prayed to God and specifically asked God to reveal to you whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with any , or many, or all of his plural wives? Have you ever prayed to God and asked him if he had commanded Joseph Smith to have sex with Fanny Alger? Or is your certainty in this strictly a matter of the critics not holding a treasure trove of Joseph Smith's stained sheets that convinces you there's nothing here?

Amen. I have studied LDS polygamy and the only way an apologist can come away with "Why Me's" view is cog. diss.
I feel like beating me head against the wall when I see LDS try and convince others that we can't know if Joseph had sex.
I guess with Why Me's logic, any married couple who is childless could be abstaining from sex, even if the wife says they do.
Joseph made these girls his WIVES, not adopted sisters or daughters in the sealing covenant. He taught them the principle of plural MARRIAGE and they struggled against it. If sex wasn't involoved, why did they need to pray for a witness that it was true, and why all the pressure from Joseph if they refused???

Your thread on MAD was right on target by the way. The only reason that plural marriage was allowed by God, via. 132, was through the strict command that it was done with the sealing power in the New and Everlasting covenant. If he didn't have the sealing keys, he commited adultery. There is no grey area for a married man sleeping with another woman or teenage adopted daughter. Either he follows the revelation condoning it or he is an adulterer.

[_Seven]

Why Me, have you ever prayed to God and specifically asked God to reveal to you whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with any , or many, or all of his plural wives? Have you ever prayed to God and asked him if he had commanded Joseph Smith to have sex with Fanny Alger? Or is your certainty in this strictly a matter of the critics not holding a treasure trove of Joseph Smith's stained sheets that convinces you there's nothing here?

Seth, it is not something that bothers me. Really, it doesn't. I don't know if he had sex with these women and I don't care. It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. I don't know what was in his heart and neither do you. But from what I know about him, it is unlikely that he had lust in his heart.

Seven:
I suspect this is the attitude of most apologists, which is why they will never understand those of us who are bothered by it.
His behavior SHOULD bother you. I really don't care if his intentions were good. He caused anguish and pain to many people that trusted him from unethical choices.

And it is unlikely that he acted on his own lust. I would say that he acted according to what he believed was the word of god. And unless you have proof to refute my understanding I can say that you are just speculating as to his intentions. And since it is a free cyberworld out there, you can do it.

Is it unimaginable to you that Joseph had lust for other women? It's not the critics who make Joseph infallible, it's the apologists.

[_Gazelam]

pg. 323 "Alger was fourteen when her family joined the Church in Mayfield, near Kirtland, in 1830. In 1836, after a time as a serving girl in the Smith household, she left Kirtland and soon married. Between these two dates, perhaps as early as 1831, she and Joseph were reportedly involved..."


pg. 325 ".. Her story was recorded as many as sixty years later by witnesses who had strong reason to take sides. Supriseingly, they all agree that Joseph married Fanny Alger as a plural wife. Ann Eliza Webb Young, the notorious divorced wife of Brigham Young who toured the country lecturing against the Mormons, thought the relationship was scandalous but reported that Fanny's parents "considered it the highest honor to have their daughter adopted into the Prophet's family, and her mother has always claimed that [Fanny] was sealed to Joseph at that time." Ann Eliza's father, Chauncey Webb, who reportedly took Alger in when Emma learned of the marriage, said Joseph "was sealed there secretly to Fanny Alger," Mormon language for marriage.

There are manny doctrines considered secret and sacred. Obviously at that time plural mariage constituted one of those doctrines.

Gaz