THE POSSIBILITY THAT BRIGHAM YOUNG WAS CORRECT

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_Gazelam
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Jason

Post by _Gazelam »

I only just read what you have asked me, and am now answering it. I was busy yesterday doing other things.

LDS Presidents Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer W. Kimball attributed their predecessor's ideas to being merely a "theory." In his book Doctrines of Salvation, Smith discounted Young's message by saying, "in all probability the sermon was erroneously transcribed!" (1:96).

During a Priesthood session of conference in October of 1976, Spencer W. Kimball labeled Brigham's teaching "false doctrine." He stated, "We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine" (Church News, 10/9/76).



I don't know about a false transcription, but it is obvious that Brigham was wrong on the subject. Ether that or he was just not very articulate in getting his point across. He states in the very talk in question that Adam was involved in the creation of the Earth under the direction of the Father alongside Christ.

How he can say this in the talk and then say some of the other things he said is very strange. I don't propose to understand why he said what he said, but in any case to think that The Father is Adam is completely False, and our modern prophets state this.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Jason

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Gazelam wrote:I only just read what you have asked me, and am now answering it. I was busy yesterday doing other things.

LDS Presidents Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer W. Kimball attributed their predecessor's ideas to being merely a "theory." In his book Doctrines of Salvation, Smith discounted Young's message by saying, "in all probability the sermon was erroneously transcribed!" (1:96).

During a Priesthood session of conference in October of 1976, Spencer W. Kimball labeled Brigham's teaching "false doctrine." He stated, "We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine" (Church News, 10/9/76).



I don't know about a false transcription, but it is obvious that Brigham was wrong on the subject. Ether that or he was just not very articulate in getting his point across. He states in the very talk in question that Adam was involved in the creation of the Earth under the direction of the Father alongside Christ.

How he can say this in the talk and then say some of the other things he said is very strange. I don't propose to understand why he said what he said, but in any case to think that The Father is Adam is completely False, and our modern prophets state this.

Gaz


Gaz,

JFS is either did not know all BY said about thiis or he was disingenuous becasue the concept was taught by Brigham unambiguously amny times over many years. It was not just in one simple sermon. It was many. He even commented once the many of the Saints were troubled by the teaching. He had the teaching included in the St Feorge temple endowment, he and Orson Pratt locked horns over it, enough members heard him teach it that they recorded the teaching in theor journal just as he taught it. They understood him.

So, if BY was teacing in error about who God is how can you trust him on other stuff? I mean really, this is not a minor issues. Fon't you think Ogd's prophet ought to really know at least who he is?

THis is the dilemma. Either BY was wrong and was teaching to worship a false God, which is dangerous territory, or he was right and the Church is in apostasy.

THink Man. Don't fall back on your feelings. How do you resolce this. And if you really think BY only referred to this obscurely once Old Testament twice do a goolge search "Brigham Young Adam God."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jason...

THis is the dilemma. Either BY was wrong and was teaching to worship a false God, which is dangerous territory, or he was right and the Church is in apostasy.


A very powerful statement!

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Gazelam
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Jason

Post by _Gazelam »

I haven't read the talks in nearly ten years, so I followed your advice and googled them. After reviewing a few of the googled sites, I would have to say that I have no idea what Brigham was talking about.

It is apparent that he was not refering to Adam being Elohim. He clearly makes a distinction, but he is under the impression that Adam was the Father of Christ, which is wrong.

The whole thingh is very odd, and I do not understand it, but I do understand that our modern prophets have spoken out against it. And that is the end of that.

I stand with the modern prophets on the matter.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Jason

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I haven't read the talks in nearly ten years, so I followed your advice and googled them. After reviewing a few of the googled sites, I would have to say that I have no idea what Brigham was talking about.


I think he was pretty clear. And in fact, given the ideas that God was once a man, that he progressed to be a God and that many gods are out there creating their worlds and peopling them it makes sense, at least for LDS theology at the time.

Here is what he is saying. Adam is the father of all the spirits of this world. He made the spirits with his wives, He was had lived another mortal life, was not exalted and in the process of creating this world. It would be peopled with his spirit children. So the earth is created and Adam, comes to this earth with one of his wives, Eve-now this is where it gets sticky-and they eat of the fruit of hits world and it corrupts their perfect exalted bodies so they become mortal again and can start the human race by creating bodies for their spirit children.

How this parlays into having been mortal, becoming an exalted God, becoming mortal again, dying, and being resurrected again is rather confusing.

But this is basically what he taught.

It is apparent that he was not referring to Adam being Elohim. He clearly makes a distinction, but he is under the impression that Adam was the Father of Christ, which is wrong.


Yep he Said Adam was Jesus Father. So if he was wrong then he got it wrong about who God was and he was a false prophet. If he was then how can his successors be true prophets and why can we trust them any better then him? I mean don't you really think that this is a pretty BIG thing to be wrong about?

The whole thigh is very odd, and I do not understand it,


It is damn odd and what is even odder is you, me or anyone can take the stance that you take below.


but I do understand that our modern prophets have spoken out against it. And that is the end of that.I stand with the modern prophets on the matter.



I understand how you think this way. I used to as well. But Gaz, why are they right and is he wrong? What if he was right and they are wrong. Maybe they are all wrong! Who knows. But this approach, at least for me, has become so irrational and subjective. It is a moving target.

If you are fine with this I am happy for you. I wish I could no this like I used. It just does not work for me anymore. But the modern prophets have essetnially delcared that the second prophet of God in this dispensation taugh false doctrine about who God is and it was not an obscure few remarks. He taught it regularly and frequently till from 1852 till his death. He believed it enough to include it as part of teh endowment. But hey, that is a moving target as well so I guess we should not be surprised,.

One last sort of off the topic remark. I do not have a problem per say with evolving doctrine that may give more light and knowledge. I think that is good. But I do expect that newly revealed doctrine would enhance prior doctrine not over turn or revoke it. I think the ideas about God in LDS doctrine did not follow this course. They seemed to add significant innovations that changed and revoked previous revelations about God and then the Church even pack peddled. Today we seem to believe in a God that is more in line with pre 1835 LDS theology save that God is tangible and they are very distinct and separate. The Church seems to want to distance itself from the post 1835 to 1878 theology and even down plays the idea that we can become Gods and the God was once a man. To me knowing who God is, based on what Joseph taught about it being the first principle of salvation, is important and this moving target is troubling.
_Gazelam
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Jason

Post by _Gazelam »

I think the problem that you are having is in thinking that once a man becomes a prophet he becomes infallible. I sthat what the issue is here?

We are expected to follow his direction and advice, but that does not mean that a prophet is suddenly Jesus Christ incarnate, never taking a backward step.

The scriptures are rife with prophets who messed up and had to straighten things out. Samson is a prime example. David and Solomon as well. Becasue these men messed up, does that mean that their stories are not good to study and learn from? Brigham was a great man, and got this one issue wrong, if he led men astray with this doctrine, he wil be held accountable and probably caused to suffer for a season for this mistep. But he, like Solomon, brought salvation to many and accomplished his mission in this life for which he had been set apart in the pre-existence. A mistep towards the end pales in comparison to all that he accomplished.

Brigham got it wrong on that issue. The vast majority of prophets from that time concur on this. I stand with those who have been called to lead in my time.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Fortigurn
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Re: Jason

Post by _Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:The scriptures are rife with prophets who messed up and had to straighten things out. Samson is a prime example. David and Solomon as well.


Can you find examples of these men making prophetic utterances supposedly under inspiration, which later turned out to be false and not inspired at all? That's what Bourne is talking about. Neither Samson nor Solomon were prophets, by the way, and David only held the prophetic office in a very restricted way.

But what we're talking about in the case of the Mormon prophets is Mormon prophets teaching through prophetic utterances which are supposedly inspired, which are followed as inspired by generations of Mormons, only to be debunked by a later generation as uninspired. This does seem to be a problem. How does any generation of Mormons know what's really from God and what isn't?
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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Ok I was wrong about Samson, he was one of the Judges, who were like a military/social leader.

Can I think of a doctrine taught by a prophet that later needed to be corrected? Not off the top of my head. But a prophet is intended to lead and direct the church. The effects of Brighams statements will be upon his own head. Was Brigham a fallen prophet? No. He got this piece of doctrine wrong, that is the end of it.

The church always rests on the majority of the Twelve. The Priesthood these men hold is the same, and the Twelve lead the church as a quorum, with the Prophet as the head. The majority of the Twelve did not subscribe to the Doctrine of Adam-God.

Since "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1Cor. 14:32), whatever is announced by the presiding brethren as counsel for the Church will be the voice of inspiration. But the truth or error of any individual will have to be judged by the standard works and the spirit of discernment and inspiration that is in those who actually enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost.

president Joseph Fielding Smith has said: "It makes no difference what is writen or what anyone has said, if what has ben said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure very man's doctrine.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in as far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

"Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted." (Doctrines of Salvation vol.3, pp.203-204.)


That is why all doctrine comes from the quorum of the Twelve, who sustain one another and operate as the leadership of the Church. We are asked to follow the Prophet as he is the head of the quorum and speaks for them in a leadership position.

Since Adam-God was not accepted by the Twelve, it is not doctrine. The prophets have spoken against it.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

So why wasn't Brigham told to sit down and shut up when he was spouting off all that nonsense about Adam and God? This is the problem, the church doesn't seem to have a very effective method of quality control. You have to wait 50 years or more before this stuff gets overhauled or chucked out.
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_Gazelam
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Fortigurn

Post by _Gazelam »

I don't know that at that time there was any sort of reviewing process before a General Authority spoke at conference. I think at this time there is some form of review before a talk is read to check scripture reference and the like, but at that time I am sure the authorities just spoke for themselves.

The issue was a source of contention among the brethren at the time, and the doctrine was not accepted by the group as a whole. The First Presidency and Council of the 12 work as a quorum to approve doctrine and scripture, and since there was never a unified whole to approve it, the doctrine is a dead matter.

Not to mention that at least three prophets since that time have set their words in writing that the doctrine was false.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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