What if you ask and the anwer is.....

[_Trinity]

...NO!


...So what is it? Can one really pray and get an answer that the Prophet it wrong? Or is it as it appears? The only correct answer that is allowed is "The issue I prayed about really is truth."

This question reminds me of one of my favorite questions in Joseph Fielding McConkie’s Straight Answers to Tough Gospel Questions. The executive summary from memory…

Q: How can you tell whether or not an answer to a prayer is from God?

A: If the answer to the prayer is consistent with the fact that the church is true, then it is from God. Otherwise it is not from God.

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

[_mentalgymnast]

Well, I have to say at this juncture in the thread that every now and then there's something good that comes along on a message board. This thread is one of them. I've enjoyed the thoughts of everyone that has posted. Harmony, I think I understand you a bit better. Jason, I can empathize your situation. I've been there. A number of years ago now I was released from a stake postition of visibility and influence on my request. I was experiencing a high level of cog dis in many areas all over the spectrum. Let it be said simply that I was at the end of my rope in regards to "the Mormon story". So much didn't make sense. So much did not appeal to my sense of right and wrong and what was rational. So much sounded like utter crap.

All of this was a first step to being able to take some baby steps towards a faith that has morphed into something different than what I knew before. At the time I didn't have a clue that it was a first step. It seemed at times as though I was taking my last step in Mormonism before I was to step out and leave all the craziness behind.

I persevered however. Line upon line. Patience. Study. Prayer. Repentance. Church attendance.

I have not seen a light or heard a voice. I still feel at times like a wanderer in a strange land, and that Mormonism is a matrix of illusions which add up to a nice little "story of the universe", but that in the end it's all nonsense.

But there are other times when it does make sense, at least enough to give it a go. Faith and hope in an eternal being or group of beings that have it all together and have the ability/power to map out a "plan of salvation" that will save all sentient beings in a degree of glory and eternal happiness is not unreasonable. To put Jesus Christ at the head of this group along with a Heavenly Father is also not unreasonable in my view.

Loran makes some good points. I do struggle with the idea of spiritual experiences and phenomena ascribed to others outside of Mormonism as being bogus or having been deceived, however. I tend towards the thinking that God's light is in and through ALL things and that light tends towards manifestation in many forms along a spectrum. Light will lead towards truth. If truth is found in Mormonism and the gospel as taught in the church then along the way, somewhere, somehow, those that find themselves adapted to and ready to receive a greater light will do so.

I wish you the best in your personal journey. My personal advice, for whatever it's worth, is to decide whether or not your faith journey (which may include a great deal of doubt and uncertainty) can be traveled in the church as well as out. Many have jumped the good ship Mormon prematurely in my opinion. I didn't jump early on and now at this point I can see that this was a good thing for a whole slew of reasons. Life is still hard, faith in Jesus Christ is still taking a giant leap into the unknown, and there are still many unknowns and questions that are always bouncing around...but I figure I can still exercise the Alma 32 "particle of faith" and desire to believe. So I do...for now.

There are good/valid reasons to believe in the truth claims of LDS'ism. Some of the things that bothered me big time a number of years ago have kind of tapered off somewhat. Time has a way of working out the kinks. As long as we NEVER stop thinking.

Contrary to popular opinion among disgruntled, died in the wool skeptics, all the thinking hasn't been done. And it can be done just as well in the church as without, for those that struggle with faith issues, etc.

Best wishes to you,
MG

[_SatanWasSetUp]

...NO!


...So what is it? Can one really pray and get an answer that the Prophet it wrong? Or is it as it appears? The only correct answer that is allowed is "The issue I prayed about really is truth."

This question reminds me of one of my favorite questions in Joseph Fielding McConkie’s Straight Answers to Tough Gospel Questions. The executive summary from memory…

Q: How can you tell whether or not an answer to a prayer is from God?

A: If the answer to the prayer is consistent with the fact that the church is true, then it is from God. Otherwise it is not from God.

LOL. That's great. Circular logic at its best. It reminds me of Melph's Promise in The Book of Zelph. That book ends with Melph promising the reader that the Book of Zelph is true, and the way to know it is true is by rolling a set of dice. If you roll a 7, it is proof the Book of Zelph is a true book of non-fiction. The best part is, if you don't roll a seven it doesn't mean the book isn't true, it simply means you have to try again. The test is only valid if you roll a seven, any other result means the test didn't work - faulty dice, bad throw, etc. But once you roll a seven it means the test was valid and the book is true.

Melph's promise is meant as a joke, but the logic isn't any different than Joseph McConkie's logic, which is a summary of Moroni's promise, and Mormons actually take that kind of circular logic very seriously and base their entire belief on it.

[_Coggins7]

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

Good grief this is pure sophistry. The Church teaches its members to ask God for themselves for confirmation of what has been taught, the same thing that investigators are told to do. No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one. The purpose revelation is to clear up doubt and instill a sure knowledge of things that otherwise could not be known. The why on earth would someone ask God to reveal something to them which they are already fully convinced is correct? I certainly never would.

[_KimberlyAnn]

...NO!


A hallmark of spiritual life in the LDS church is the concept of asking God for confirmation. We are told by "to search the scriptures... ask your heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth of it unto you....He will answer you. You will then know for yourself. Joseph Smith from Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. 11-12.

I am reading a FAIR paper in defense of much of what surrounded plural marriage. Much of it is well written and has some good ideas. But I came to this part about "No Church Member is obliged to blindly follow leaders past or present...)See Polygamy, Prophets, and Prevarication by Gregory Smith, M.D, Page 16.

Smith spends a some time on this idea. He notes that Joseph asked other to pray about polygamy, whether it came from God and to get their own confirmation it is true. Many did so and testify they did get confirmation. The obeyed and entered into the principle. They are the true faithful. They passed the test.

But what of others. Does one thing that Sidney Rig don did not seek God's mind about this? How about William Law or William Marks? They are viewed as not faithful and failing this Abrahamic test. Why? What if they got the right answer, that polygamy is not of God. What if I or some of the others here got an answer that polygamy or some other things was not from God.

Are we wrong?

It seems to me that the only time this idea of asking and not fallowing leaders blindly works is when the person gets and answer that yes, the leader is right, what they are teaching is true. If someone gets a different answer then they are not faithful, failing the test or whatever.

So what is it? Can one really pray and get an answer that the Prophet it wrong? Or is it as it appears? The only correct answer that is allowed is "The issue I prayed about really is truth."

Hi, Jason.

This is my first post on this board. I've lurked a bit, but your post is what finally prompted my registration.

I'm an ex-Mormon and I also post on RfM as Kimberly Ann, which is my name in real life. I resigned from Mormonism almost four years ago, after thirty-one years in the church.

Your post is a painful reminder of what I went through during the last several months before my decision that I could no longer in good conscience remain a Mormon. Polygamy, in it's historical context always weighed heavily on my heart, as well as the future prospect of an eternity in heaven which seemed no better than a swanky Colorado City. It never felt right, but I always believed the reason it never felt right was because of my weakness, lack of faith, or selfishness - the bad feelings were all my fault. It couldn't be because the church was wrong - that Joseph Smith lied - I just couldn't even go there in my mind. So, after being told (by an active member) about Joseph Smith's marriages to already married women and his affair with Fanny Alger and his sealing to fourteen year old Helen Mar, my testimony was weakened to almost nothing and I was more miserable than I'd ever been in my life. I hit my knees and prayed for answers. Many times a day I prayed and cried, pleading with God to tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the church I'd dedicated my life to was indeed true like my entire family believed it to be. There was never a time I seeked answers to my questions with more earnestness than when I was trying to salvage my testimony. But God didn't tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet. Consolation never came. In fact, I believed God answered my questions firmly in the negative. Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He was a womanizer and he lied about polygamy. I don't know if it really was God answering my questions, or if my own conscience was screaming out to be heard and believed, but I knew, deep down, that the church wasn't true.

I went to my Bishop and he told me my answer was from the Devil and that I was a prideful, selfish woman who didn't want other women to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. He asked for my temple recommend, which I refused to give him. I just didn't want to obey that mean old man - I didn't want to go to the temple anymore. So, I had to go home and tell my husband, the First Counselor in the Elder's Quorum and Assistant Ward Clerk that I didn't believe the church was true and I'd never again step foot in a Mormon church, even if it meant he would leave me. I'm a little bit stubborn.

I'm telling this story, Jason, so that you'll know you're not the only person who's ever asked questions and gotten answers opposite of what the church says you should get. Who are they to tell you how God should answer your prayers? Is the prophet placing himself above God by dictating how God must answer our prayers? How presumptious must someone be to tell you the answers to your prayers aren't from God just because the answers don't suit them or their religious beliefs?

I left the church and eventually my husband left, too. Later, my mother and all my siblings turned in their resignation letters. My life is so different now. The weight of all the worries over polygamy and other doctrinal nightmares is gone and although leaving wasn't easy, I would never want to go back.

The bottom line is that Jospeh Smith's story is unbelievable because it's a lie and shouldn't be believed. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I can empathize with you, Jason, and I know questioning your faith is hard. I've been where you are and I wish you the best.

KA

[_Coggins7]

Did I miss something or did you just commit the same pride and hubris you accuse me of by essentially stating your witness and knowledge Trump's that of millions of others that claim to know that what they follow is truth. I have an evangelical friend. He witnesses that reformed theology as held in the protestant low church position is true, the true gospel and any other is another gospel.

He has prayed. He knows scripture. He believes the Holy Ghost has spoken to him. Does your testimony Trump his?

The answer is yes, you have most definitely missed something. You know, its interesting that based upon your own attitude and statements made here, you would have told Jesus to his face that he was full of it when he claimed that he was "the way, the truth, and the life" and that no one comes to the Father but by him. When Paul said that there was no other way nor means other than Jesus Christ by which we could be saved, you would, presumably, have told him he was full of hubris and arrogance. Who, after all, was Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, to claim exclusive right to the ultimate truth, what with the millions of other people in the ancient world worshiping other gods in other belief systems. Just who did he think he was?

So just throw your hands up in despair, roll your eyes and dismiss the testimony of the Saints, resist the Spirit, and rebel against God. That's all well and good, but don't accuse me of hubris. What I'm telling you is simply the truth as its been made known to me out of concern for your soul. It was you, not me, who presumed to know my heart.

[_Runtu]

Hi, Jason.

This is my first post on this board. I've lurked a bit, but your post is what finally prompted my registration.

I'm an ex-Mormon and I also post on RfM as Kimberly Ann, which is my name in real life. I resigned from Mormonism almost four years ago, after thirty-one years in the church.

Your post is a painful reminder of what I went through during the last several months before my decision that I could no longer in good conscience remain a Mormon. Polygamy, in it's historical context always weighed heavily on my heart, as well as the future prospect of an eternity in heaven which seemed no better than a swanky Colorado City. It never felt right, but I always believed the reason it never felt right was because of my weakness, lack of faith, or selfishness - the bad feelings were all my fault. It couldn't be because the church was wrong - that Joseph Smith lied - I just couldn't even go there in my mind. So, after being told (by an active member) about Joseph Smith's marriages to already married women and his affair with Fanny Alger and his sealing to fourteen year old Helen Mar, my testimony was weakened to almost nothing and I was more miserable than I'd ever been in my life. I hit my knees and prayed for answers. Many times a day I prayed and cried, pleading with God to tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the church I'd dedicated my life to was indeed true like my entire family believed it to be. There was never a time I seeked answers to my questions with more earnestness than when I was trying to salvage my testimony. But God didn't tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet. Consolation never came. In fact, I believed God answered my questions firmly in the negative. Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He was a womanizer and he lied about polygamy. I don't know if it really was God answering my questions, or if my own conscience was screaming out to be heard and believed, but I knew, deep down, that the church wasn't true.

I went to my Bishop and he told me my answer was from the Devil and that I was a prideful, selfish woman who didn't want other women to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. He asked for my temple recommend, which I refused to give him. I just didn't want to obey that mean old man - I didn't want to go to the temple anymore. So, I had to go home and tell my husband, the First Counselor in the Elder's Quorum and Assistant Ward Clerk that I didn't believe the church was true and I'd never again step foot in a Mormon church, even if it meant he would leave me. I'm a little bit stubborn.

I'm telling this story, Jason, so that you'll know you're not the only person who's ever asked questions and gotten answers opposite of what the church says you should get. Who are they to tell you how God should answer your prayers? Is the prophet placing himself above God by dictating how God must answer our prayers? How presumptious must someone be to tell you the answers to your prayers aren't from God just because the answers don't suit them or their religious beliefs?

I left the church and eventually my husband left, too. Later, my mother and all my siblings turned in their resignation letters. My life is so different now. The weight of all the worries over polygamy and other doctrinal nightmares is gone and although leaving wasn't easy, I would never want to go back.

The bottom line is that Jospeh Smith's story is unbelievable because it's a lie and shouldn't be believed. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I can empathize with you, Jason, and I know questioning your faith is hard. I've been where you are and I wish you the best.

KA

KA,

It's great to see you over here. Stick around!

That's a pretty good summary of how I feel. The hurt has passed for the most part, but what remains is the conviction that it isn't true, indeed, and none of it does stand up to scrutiny. I'm impressed by people like Jason and harmony and Liz who manage to make things work. Sometimes I wish I could have done so.

[_Trinity]

I went to my Bishop and he told me my answer was from the Devil and that I was a prideful, selfish woman who didn't want other women to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. He asked for my temple recommend, which I refused to give him. KA

What????? Seriously? When did this happen?

[_Analytics]

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

Good grief this is pure sophistry. The Church teaches its members to ask God for themselves for confirmation of what has been taught, the same thing that investigators are told to do. No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one. The purpose revelation is to clear up doubt and instill a sure knowledge of things that otherwise could not be known. The why on earth would someone ask God to reveal something to them which they are already fully convinced is correct? I certainly never would.

Here is what usually happens. Somebody in Church teaches something. He or she tells you that they "know" it is true. Somebody else will add their witness that they also know it is true. And sometimes, you are told that you can pray about it too and know for yourself. But that is loaded with the promise that your answer will be the same as their answer.

You are then placed in the position of either going along with their lead and having a comfortable position in the community, or coming to a different conclusion which entails not only the desturbing implication that these confident people are wrong, but also that you don't fit in with the tribe.

Psychologists have proven that human beings respond irratinally to confidence and emotional messages. If somebody says something with confidence and conviction, people are naturally inclined to believe it. This is why the advertising industry uses testimonials and plays to emotion and almost never plays to a level-headed evaluation of the facts. Because that is what people resond to.

People are suceptible to believing false things when they hear an earnest testimonial. That should be a red flag.

[_Coggins7]

Loran makes some good points. I do struggle with the idea of spiritual experiences and phenomena ascribed to others outside of Mormonism as being bogus or having been deceived, however. I tend towards the thinking that God's light is in and through ALL things and that light tends towards manifestation in many forms along a spectrum. Light will lead towards truth. If truth is found in Mormonism and the gospel as taught in the church then along the way, somewhere, somehow, those that find themselves adapted to and ready to receive a greater light will do so.

I think that, from an LDS perspective, the manner in which the Spirit works with others outside the Kingdom of God isn't to difficult a concept, if one understands that the Spirit guides and assists all human beings to are sincerely searching for greater light and knowledge to acquire it, including in other religious systems and outside of any organized system of belief.

For example, the ancient Greek idea of mortality as a labyrinth through which a mortal must pass, while meeting the Minotaur (holding his world symbol as a great battle ax) is just as valid, as a symbol of the mortal experience as our own modern motifs or metaphors of life as a great testing ground, university, field of battle, or whatever. Lao Tzu's idea of "returning to the state of the uncarved block" and becoming as a "litte child again" resonate with my own consciousness and soul. The truth, regardless of source, is one with all other truth.

I find no difficulty believing that the Spirit can work within people's lives within other churches without working within those churches as systems of belief or organized religious bodies, as far as their ministerial authority and the legitimacy of many of their teachings goes. I have no problem believing that others outside the church have legitimate spiritual experiences of various kinds.

The idea of the Restored Gospel, however, is that the visible, organized Kingdom of God on earth is a central divinely authorized locus from which the fundamental truths about the nature of God, man, and mankind;s relationship to God are disseminated to the world by legal administrators who are authorized, not only to teach the Gospel, but of overarching importance, to administer in the ordinances of salvation. The Restored Gospel is a "clearing house" so to speak of the great and important truths about mankind's place in the universe; about the great story of the human condition told through divine authority in its purity free of human accretions.

So its not that spiritual experiences are not available to non-members of the Church, its that the full range of them are not available.