Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Beastie, I do think there is bigotry in many of the institutional statements, but I'm hesitant to say this in an environment like this. You'll notice I hardly ever start a thread here (even when I have time), and my commentary is limited. (Ditto for MAD, though I'd rather start a thread there than here.) Sometimes I think the commentary here is as bad a RFM - too negative, too cynical and sarcastic, and always denigrating Mormonism. Take a cheap shot anytime you can, seems to be the go. I don't mind threads like your analysis of Book of Mormon archaeology and associated problems, and I like discussing the challenges facing Mormonism. I'm afraid to say that all the negativity and constant denigrating of Mormons and Mormonism is just not my "cup of tea", and my empathy for exmos is slowly being reduced to zero. Ironically, the more negativity there is, the less I listen, and the less empathy I feel. If people can't make points without cheap shots, or having this stomach churning need to call Mormonism a fraud, and "old Joe" a charlatan, I would rather not comment. That may be their honest opinion, but it is not mine, and to me it's pointless trying to counter such sentiments.


Ray, I read your post this morning but didn’t have time to reply. In the interim, other people posted exactly the point I want to make to you.

You and I both live in the “mission field”, where the number of LDS is quite small. Neither being LDS nor apostatizing from the LDS church made one whit of difference in my life outside my family. Other than my closest friends, few people knew or cared. (other than perhaps wanting to save my soul) My social standing at work, with friends, was not affected at all.

I do have active LDS family (If I recall correctly, your family is not LDS, right?), but they are on the “liberal” side. It was initially difficult for them when I left but we all learned to deal with it and move on. We just don’t talk about it. Of course, that leaves a lot of important things unspoken, but I can live with that and so can they. I wasn’t risking a marriage worth saving (I didn’t know how my LDS husband would react to my apostasy, but it was not a marriage worth saving in the first place). It was frightening, nonetheless, in my mid-thirties to suddenly have to figure out life and my purpose in it, so it wasn’t easy or painless. I’m just saying that I didn’t pay a huge social cost.

But I do remember living in Utah while going to BYU and for a short period after my mission. Of course, BYU is unusual in its LDS obsessiveness, but there are certainly other parts in Utah that are almost as drenched in Mormonism. I student taught in a small suburb of SLC, and it was almost 100% Mormon. The church, activities in it, beliefs, were a constant part of the interactions between the teachers. Now if I had ended up living there, working there, my apostasy would have had a HUGE impact on me socially and maybe even professionally. The thought of suddenly being viewed with suspicion by your coworkers and even your boss makes me shudder. What a horrible environment to suddenly have to deal with. And of course, this says nothing of the familial systems that are seriously disrupted by apostasy. These people pay a huge price for their nonbelief. Their entire lives are impacted. It is these people, who live in an LDS dominated culture, who truly pay the price for this institutionalized bigotry.

Perhaps you cannot empathize with the extent of their anger and their need to vent in a “safe” place, but perhaps because I lived in Utah, I can. Think about it, Ray. Think about everyone in your life suddenly viewing you with suspicion because of what they’ve been taught about apostates from the cradle. Think about worrying if your spouse will leave you. Do you hide your disbelief? Many do. Yet that causes another set of problems.

You say the church is not going to change its tenets, but the fact is that the church has changed its teachings over the years. It evolves. It can evolve in this fashion as well. Until and unless it does, it will continue to produce broken families, broken social systems, because it is inevitable that people will continue to lose their faith - decent, sincere, intelligent people who tried their best to hang onto that faith, partly due to what they’d been taught from the cradle as well.

Is it really too much to ask that the leaders of the LDS church stop encouraging institutionalized bigotry against those who lose faith?

So much of what is brought up is resurrected from the past. And I don't disagree that sometimes it is relative to modern attitudes, but for the most part it's in the past. Like President Hinckley said, "it's behind us". Does anyone believe him? Polygamy is behind them (in reality that is); the black ban is behind them, and what Mark Petersen said in the 1950s is also behind them. Why does the past continually have to be dredged up?


It is dredged up for the reason that is the topic of this thread. When Mormons who have been taught from the cradle that the loss of faith is a sign of an evil or flawed character, then when they lose faith, they feel compelled to demonstrate that there were legitimate reasons for their loss of faith. If the LDS culture were not encouraged to view apostates as evil or flawed persons, this justification wouldn’t be necessary.

However, to the point about blame, and demonising people, specifically exmos. I think both parties are to blame. But what I think exmos need to understand is that the church isn't going to change its tenets. It is a restorationist movement with numerous scriptures which urge "crying repentance" to the world, it's a black and white view, "you are with us or against us", you are good or evil. Think of Nephi's "two churches", and Lehi's dream of the river of water, and the mockers in the "great and spacious building". The literary imagery is powerful, even though it creates a divide, and it purposely does so. Even if the Book of Mormon is rejected as history, it's spiritual tenets remain, and it does not only create a divide, but it urges compassion. In many places. "This life is the time to prepare to meet God." In my study of NDEs I continually see this, that life is a time to "improve our lot", but I don't believe the Book of Mormon tells us all. We are all either growing more compassionate and gaining worthwhile knowledge in this life, or we are going backwards, or maybe on the fence for many years. So my own belief system says nothing is stagnant, and God also "remembereth the heathen" (like me), and whatever my weaknesses are, I feel admiration for people who can "improve their lot", and I believe these good LDS values are totally in line with what NDErs say, minus bigotry. Bigtory is not helpful, nor is exclusiveness, but I try to look beyond that. I think bigotry is a symptom of spiritual immaturity. Brigham Young may have said some bigoted things, as you noted above, and he said things that were not at all in harmony with what the Book of Mormon teaches. President Kimball was very different, and anyone who has read his biography cannot fail to be moved by his compassion and love for people. So why don't we focus on people like Spencer W. Kimball, who is much closer to our time, instead of dredging up quotes from Brigham Young? Take the best out of Mormonism, because it has a lot to offer. I believe, with all its faults, and yes even bigotry, it is an inspired and revealed religion. As noted by many, some of the harshest recorded words of Jesus were directed to the religious clans and religious hypocrisy and pride. I believe the Book of Mormon has the very same message. And what it says relative to persecution should be noted by Mormons inclined to bigotry:


The LDS church is like any other religion, in that its holy texts and teachings of revered leaders tend to include mixed messages. Do we take care of our family or abandon them if called to by God? Do we love our enemies or attack them? It’s up to current leaders to speak out against the bigotry and violence that members can reasonably conclude are justified from past teachings and scriptures. Although I didn’t agree with all his points, I think Dawkins was right on the money when he made that assertion in his latest book The God Delusion.

As long as leaders, over the pulpit, continue to tell LDS that people only lose faith for certain reasons, and all of the reasons are connected to moral failings, then LDS will continue to look at their friends and family who leave the church with suspicion. So the cycle will continue. Of course exmormons are sometimes guilty of bigotry themselves. But there is no institutionalized bigotry, because there is no institution of exmormonism, just various internet sites where some exmormons vent. Moreover, as I tried to explain earlier, since we all began as LDS learning the same lessons from our leaders, it is within the LDS church that the cycle begins.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

asbestosman wrote:...although I hope that doesn't mean the TBM spouse needs to be less believing...


Me too. Hopefully she gets there on her own, independent of it - as happened in my case.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

I just quickly read through this thread, and I found references to things said way back when, a lot of finger-pointing about who started what, calls for apologies, and tales of personal woes.

What I didn't find is much if any personal accountability or ideas presented to improve things--particularly from one's own end.

I have found that almost invariably, without doing the latter, then doing the former is a waste of time. If one wishes to affect positive change, then one must look inward and acknowledge the part one may play in the dynamic, and then work to correct and improve one's part. Often, that will suffice in greatly improving the situation to the benefit of all.

To that end, and for my part as a believing member, I have attempted to improve relations with unbelievers and former members by putting into practice the 11th article of faith: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may", and by encouraging the same in return.

I also believe it helpful to be motivated by, and to encourage, love and peace and joy, rather than fear, insecurity, divisiveness, etc.; and to focus less on the appendages of my faith and more on matters of pure religion (feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, healing the sick and afflicted, etc.), putting the interest of others (particularly the children) first.

Then, too, I have found it benefitial to be still and at peace, and to trust that if I do my part in building relationships and people (particularly myself), rather than tearing them down or apart, all will turn out for the better, if not for the best.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

What I didn't find is much if any personal accountability or ideas presented to improve things--particularly from one's own end.


So says the individual who, by his own admission, has never approached the problem from "one's own end". Wade has no interest in helping LDS find their own accountability in this dysfunctional "relationship", and continually focuses on one end alone - the exmormon end.

I am not surprised that wade did not address the actual citations I offered as evidence of ongoing institutionalized bigotry in the LDS church. You would think that an individual who supposedly cares a great deal about eradicating bigotry would pay at least a tiny bit of attention to the bigotry manifested by his own leaders. But you would only think that if you didn't realize Wade's agenda is just like the one outlined in the OP - he's just using slightly different vocabulary to do so. Instead of stating that exmormons are evil, want to sin, lazy, or possess some other character flaw, Wade believes they are psychologically disturbed.

Same song, different verse.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:I just quickly read through this thread, and I found references to things said way back when, a lot of finger-pointing about who started what, calls for apologies, and tales of personal woes.

What I didn't find is much if any personal accountability or ideas presented to improve things--particularly from one's own end.

I have found that almost invariably, without doing the latter, then doing the former is a waste of time. If one wishes to affect positive change, then one must look inward and acknowledge the part one may play in the dynamic, and then work to correct and improve one's part. Often, that will suffice in greatly improving the situation to the benefit of all.

To that end, and for my part as a believing member, I have attempted to improve relations with unbelievers and former members by putting into practice the 11th article of faith: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may", and by encouraging the same in return.

I also believe it helpful to be motivated by, and to encourage, love and peace and joy, rather than fear, insecurity, divisiveness, etc.; and to focus less on the appendages of my faith and more on matters of pure religion (feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, healing the sick and afflicted, etc.), putting the interest of others (particularly the children) first.

Then, too, I have found it benefitial to be still and at peace, and to trust that if I do my part in building relationships and people (particularly myself), rather than tearing them down or apart, all will turn out for the better, if not for the best.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Wade, we're all doing the best we can from our end. What I objected to was the idea that the church doesn't teach these attitudes towards those who leave. I don't find it healthy to pretend that it isn't a problem.

But you're right that I can't do anything about what they do. I can work to heal myself, and I'm doing the best I can to do that.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

beastie wrote:
What I didn't find is much if any personal accountability or ideas presented to improve things--particularly from one's own end.


So says the individual who, by his own admission, has never approached the problem from "one's own end". Wade has no interest in helping LDS find their own accountability in this dysfunctional "relationship", and continually focuses on one end alone - the exmormon end.

I am not surprised that wade did not address the actual citations I offered as evidence of ongoing institutionalized bigotry in the LDS church. You would think that an individual who supposedly cares a great deal about eradicating bigotry would pay at least a tiny bit of attention to the bigotry manifested by his own leaders. But you would only think that if you didn't realize Wade's agenda is just like the one outlined in the OP - he's just using slightly different vocabulary to do so. Instead of stating that exmormons are evil, want to sin, lazy, or possess some other character flaw, Wade believes they are psychologically disturbed.

Same song, different verse.


Your many false accusations aside, I see that you figure that blame-fests are the way to go in repairing relations rather than my GENERIC suggestions about personal accountability and personal action (which, contrary to what you suggested, I did, and have, applied to myself). We will just have to wait and see if it works any better for you than it has in the past (not that you may care). To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Wade, we know you have (cough) "applied" this to yourself. The problem is you refuse to apply it to the community that would be far more open to suggestion from you. Other believers.

And, by the way, what I do works fine. I have a very happy life, with some bumps now and then, as is normal.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

Um...okay. Beastie's kinda hot.

Wait, do I have to be a self-loathing theist to say that?

Help Wade!?

CKS

PS. If she's likes Lego men, I'm in like Flynn.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Um...okay. Beastie's kinda hot.

Wait, do I have to be a self-loathing theist to say that?

Help Wade!?

CKS

PS. If she's likes Lego men, I'm in like Flynn.


LOL!

No, you just have to be willing to risk the ire of beastie's boyfriend/fiance/onetruelove, who eats theists for lunch. ;)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

beastie wrote:
No, you just have to be willing to risk the ire of beastie's boyfriend/fiance/onetruelove, who eats theists for lunch. ;)


I'll risk it. *WHISTLE* beastie's a hottie!!!

*Bond runs.....*
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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