LDS "world famous scholar" publishes book

[_guy sajer]

I do believe that Tal is just a little jealous of DCP. I can understand the envy that Tal is showing. After all, it is quite clear that Dan's book is a demonstration that DCP is a first rate scholar. For countermo's like Tal, it is a bitter piece of fruit to swallow to see a Mormon 'apologist' publish a scholarly work. Get used to it Tal.

I too have respect for Daniel. He is a good guy who defends the LDS church quite well. For Tal et, al, he is a thorn in their sides. Why don't you publish your own book Tal and demonstrate just how inferior Dan's book is.

Define "first rate scholar." Decades later with virtually no peer-reviewed pubs does is anything BUT a first-rate scholar. You have extremely loose standards.

[_dartagnan]

Dan's reputation will continue to sky-rocket as long as he keeps writing apologetically about Islam. Just look at what happened to John Esposito.

From which reputable institution of higher education did he earn his doctorate.....Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Georgetown? No

Try Holy Cross!!

According to Pumplehoober, this is one of the colleges in America that should be shut down.

Martin Kramer writes that Esposito "would have remained obscure even by the standards of Middle Eastern studies" if it were not for Edward Said. It was Said's successful 1978 book Orientalism that spurred a large demand "for sympathetic texts on Islam" that were "uncontaminated by anti-Americanisms" and "preferably even written by an American." Esposito's rise, Kramer writes, can be solely attributed to his ability to meet this demand

http://www.geocities.com/martinkrameror ... scured.htm

But since his apologetic endeavor into Islam, and his willingness to publish books that pander to a curious public (i.e. Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality?) Oxford has given him a huge contract and now suddenly this means he just became the world's authority and the last word for people who want to be told what they want to hear (i.e. Islam is peaceful, Muhammad was a generous politician, terrorists hijacked true Islam, etc).

Esposito: Apologist for Militant Islam
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Pr ... sp?ID=2651

The same could happen to Dan. He's young yet.

[_Pumplehoober]

But since his apologetic endeavor into Islam, and his willingness to publish books that pander to a curious public (I.e. Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality?) Oxford has given him a huge contract and now suddenly this means he just became the world's authority and the last word for people who want to be told what they want to hear (I.e. Islam is peaceful, Muhammad was a generous politician, terrorists hijacked true Islam, etc).

Is it any wonder that the educated LDS apologetic community specializing in Near Eastern Studies finds you disgusting and bigoted? Do the people who praise you here know that the real reason you left Mormonism was the rejection you found because of your prejudices, and nothing due to with the strength of arguments? Nevertheless continue spewing hate, it does not really need to be elaborated on.

[_Mercury]

Ray, is there ANY religion that you think contains any fraudulent claims?

Yes, all of them - except Mormonism, which has the "pure doctrine of Christ", ONLY contained in the Book of Mormon.

I can't tell if hes being sarcastic or not.

Hey Ray, hows that book coming along you said you were writing? Have an editor yet or are there too many cans of that fine aussie ale Fosters around clouding your judgement?

[_Ray A]

Hey Ray, hows that book coming along you said you were writing? Have an editor yet or are there too many cans of that fine aussie ale Fosters around clouding your judgement?

I don't drink Fosters. It tastes like cow piss. It makes me think like an angry exmo.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Hey Ray, hows that book coming along you said you were writing? Have an editor yet or are there too many cans of that fine aussie ale Fosters around clouding your judgement?

I don't drink Fosters. It tastes like cow piss. It makes me think like an angry exmo.

but you do drink alcohol?

by the way, I have never tasted cow piss. How do you know what it tastes like?

Must be a down under thing? :P

[_Ray A]

but you do drink alcohol?

Only when the sun goes down, then I go out and strangle little kittens. A trick I learned from my "idol", DCP.

[_Ray A]

by the way, I have never tasted cow piss. How do you know what it tastes like?

Neither have I. But if it tastes anything like it smells, all it needs is a Fosters can and a week fermentation.

[_Polygamy Porter]

but you do drink alcohol?

Only when the sun goes down, then I go out and strangle little kittens. A trick I learned from my "idol", DCP.

Nothing wrong with strangled kitten... the French do it with cute duckies, so to each his own... Although there is not alot of meat on those little kittens... you'd need to strangle an entire litter of the little rascals :)

Remember, animals fall into one of two categories, cute or tasty. YMMV.

[_Tal Bachman]

Ray wrote:

Life, and truth, are not so black and white as you wish to portray. If it was so black and white, we would not be having these debates. I know you are settled in your mind, and I pity your disillusionment, but don't expect the world to think in black and white, like you do. We don't have "all the answers", and believe it or not - that includes you, Tali.

Permit me to allow Gordon B. Hinckley himself to respond to your stupid assertion, as it relates to Mormonism (which of course is the context of our discussion here):

"Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."

How much cognitive impairment is required to not understand what your own prophet announces, over the pulpit, in the church's general conference? Would you answer that one, Ray? Here it is, one more time:

"Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." (That's from the 2003 GC talk "Loyalty". Look it up on LDS.org).

Perhaps knowing he'd be speaking to members just like you, Hinckley even saw fit to include this scripture in the same talk:

The book of Revelation declares: “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth” (Rev. 3:15–16).

Are Hinckley's blunt statements enough to get through to you? Of course not. Anyone who could so miss the fact, articulated in every testimony meeting, GC address, and scripture, that it is Mormonism itself which demands that its truth/authority claims be evaluated in black and white terms, could never be presumed to understand even when it is reiterated in plainest language by the church's president.

Your comments are ridiculous, Ray, I am sorry to say. You label me a "fundamentalist" for beginning with a premise that every sane man, Mormon or not, would acknowledge, and what the sitting president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints himself proclaims from the GC pulpit: that whether Mormonism is all it claims to be or not, is ENTIRELY a "black or white" issue.

About Dan Peterson - your argument seems to be that getting interviewed and being invited to give lectures at some place on university campuses means one is a "highly-respected scholar". By that line of "reasoning", I'd qualify just as much as a 'highly respected scholar" as would Dan Peterson - and truth be told, by your line of reasoning, perhaps more so. But I'm not any such scholar - and neither is he.

Though you appear not to have noticed, being a scholar highly regarded by one's peers takes a lot of hard work. In academia, it takes publishing a lot of good, original research in one's field.

Now, if one's field is spin doctoring, or trying to keep oneself in a state of mind where one can keep believing in the most demonstrably false claims imaginable (whether Mormon, Nation of Islam, or Moonie), then Dan Peterson, and every other one of those FARMS guys, and every other counterpart in every other crazy religion or cause, are all highly successful. But, except for rare cases, they are not also "highly successful" in what should be their academic disciplines, in the sense of being "well-regarded scholars". And I can hardly believe that you would cite the regard of Owen and Mosser, who themselves are apologists for fraud (and you yourself necessarily agree with me on that, if you believe that Mormonism is the only true religion) and aren't exactly Rodney Stark and Paula Fredericksen in their own reputations, as evidence that your man Peterson is a "well-respected scholar" in his academic field. Truly embarrassing.

About C. S. Lewis, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, etc. - yes, I've read them all. Judging from your posts, I can't help but imagine that I've read far more of what they've written than you have - supposing that's even relevant, which I'm not sure it is. In fact, I might even say that anyone who could read the genial and witty apologetic writings of Lewis, and think there was any affinity between them and the pedantic, obfuscatory, often surly monstrosities churned out by the ideologues over at FARMS (or any other, such outfit for that matter), could only be an ideologue himself.

You talk like a bigshot, Ray - but I think you're just as much a fraud as the frauds you defend here. So, why not prove me wrong? Show us all just how much you really believe what you say, by attemtping to replicate the results of my little email experiment about Peterson (or Rhodes or Gee for that matter)? Email ten top Islamic scholars about your man Peterson. See what they say. Then post the results here.

If you're right about Peterson's standing, you should be able to totally embarrass me. What glory would be yours! Embarrassing the evil Tal Bachman! Go ahead and do it, Ray. Pick ten TOP ISLAMIC SCHOLARS AROUND THE WORLD - scan the directories of Oxford and Cambridge, Columbia, ANU perhaps, Michigan, UCLA, wherever they have Near or Middle Eastern Studies programs at top flight universities, and then email as many professors as you want and ask them if they have ever heard of the "Islamist" (which is what Peterson calls himself) Daniel C. Peterson, and what their professional opinion of his research is.

DO IT. Show the world your cojones, Ray. Show the world what a puny, dishonest wretch I am, and how right you are! Show us that you yourself are not a fraud.

If you really believe what you are saying, you should have no hesitation whatsoever.