Dealing with Anti-Mormon Literature, p. 14

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:You couldn't have illustrated more effectively my contention that different people will view the term anti-Mormon differently. Thank you.


Well, thank goodness that's been settled. The level of truth in this world has just been significantly elevated. But what does it have to do with whether the church discourages -- let's say -- literature that isn't faith promoting and gives children a bad feeling?


I have no problem with the church officially discouraging literature that isn't faith promoting and/or gives children a bad feeling. What I have a problem is the church officially discouraging literature that contains the truth, just because it isn't faith promoting. For example, the truth about MMM isn't faith promoting, yet how many members could find a non-biased presentation of it in a Deseret bookstore? Is it possible to find a faith-promoting presentation of MMM?
_silentkid
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Post by _silentkid »

Daniel Peterson wrote:And you think their job was to persuade her to refuse to read anything published by the Maxwell Institute?


Thanks for twisting my words. Their job is not to prevent her from reading material from the Maxwell Institute...it's to prevent her from needing to read anything from the Maxwell Institute. The Maxwell Institute, FAIR, FARMS, MAAD etc. deal with issues raised by critics. Since my sister doesn't read any critical information, she has no need for the services that "apologetics" renders. I imagine this is the case with most members that live outside Utah. I wonder what the results would be of a poll conducted in Sunday School classes throughout the world--how many members will have actually heard of the Maxwell Institute/FARMS/FAIR? I would guess very few. Like I said, the church has been pretty effective against keeping members from reading anything that is critical to the church, thus negating their need to read anything published by the Maxwell Institute.

You couldn't have illustrated more effectively my contention that different people will view the term anti-Mormon differently. Thank you.


You're welcome. What I illustrated is how an ordinary member views anti-Mormon material. You choose to interpret that as you will.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:Just what horrible information does "anti Mormon" literature reveal that Compton, Quinn, and other "new historians" don't also reveal?

Well, among my favorites are such important disclosures as the existence of a full-scale reproduction of the Oval Office in the Washington DC Temple, from which the Mormons will rule the country after their coup; the drinking of blood from human skull mugs in the Holy of Holies in Salt Lake City; and the use of Boy Scout training to prepare a Mormon paramilitary force. I could multiply such things for hours, but those will do.

beastie wrote:Why would reading the Tanners be taboo but it's fine to read Quinn's work that, for example, talks at length about the fact that there is no historical evidence recorded supporting the restoration of the M priesthood?

There's no "taboo" on reading the Tanners. I can see one of their books from where I'm typing right now.

But Quinn, despite his flaws, is a serious scholar. Jerald Tanner, despite his strengths, was not.

beastie wrote:And why would reading Ed Decker be taboo but it's fine to read Van Wagoner and Compton who talk at length about how Joseph Smith coerced and pressured young women and already married women to become his "wives"?

See above.

I can see two Decker books to my left. (Of course, a new biography of Einstein, the Oxford Classical Dictionary, the Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, and a German edition of a book by Nietzsche, among many others, sit to my right, so things are a bit eclectic around here.)

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Oh, he's just saying that in the hope there are some little followers lurking around who will be impressed .

Are you referring to me, Lucretia? If so, could you please explain what on earth you're talking about?
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Is it possible to find a faith-promoting presentation of MMM?

No. What are you looking for? A Mormon defense of mass murder?
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

No. What are you looking for? A Mormon defense of mass murder?


Not entirely unheard of. We saw a couple of LDS apologists at MAD do precisely that. DIggerdan informed us all that killing the children was the best thing for them
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

silentkid wrote:Thanks for twisting my words. Their job is not to prevent her from reading material from the Maxwell Institute...it's to prevent her from needing to read anything from the Maxwell Institute.

That's just as twisted.

silentkid wrote:The Maxwell Institute, FAIR, FARMS, MAAD etc.

An oddly miscellaneous list. Rather like, "mammals, lizards, squirrels, zoos."

silentkid wrote:deal with issues raised by critics

Responding to critics is just a small part of what FARMS does. And FARMS is only a part of the Maxwell Institute. The Middle Eastern Texts Initiative and the Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, the other two principal components of the Maxwell Institute, don't respond to critics nor even deal with Mormonism at all.

silentkid wrote:Like I said, the church has been pretty effective against keeping members from reading anything that is critical to the church, thus negating their need to read anything published by the Maxwell Institute.

I doubt that very many members of the Church will ever "need" to read Suhrawardi's The Philosophy of Illumination or to consult a CD of Syriac manuscripts from the Vatican Apostolic Library. But I think that even those who don't give a fig for the Tanners might still find Royal Skousen's critical edition of the Book of Mormon text fascinating, and I can't believe that reading Ed Decker is a prerequisite to appreciating our recent volume on Oliver Cowdery.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

dartagnan wrote:DIggerdan informed us all that killing the children was the best thing for them


I read that sometime....that guy should be in the MAD Hall of Shame along with Scott "can we focus on the baby killing" Cho.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

dartagnan wrote:
No. What are you looking for? A Mormon defense of mass murder?

Not entirely unheard of. We saw a couple of LDS apologists at MAD do precisely that. DIggerdan informed us all that killing the children was the best thing for them

I missed that, and I don't know who "Diggerdan" is.

Any loon can say anything -- particularly under a pseudonym -- and claim to represent anybody on a message board.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Any loon can say anything -- particularly under a pseudonym -- and claim to represent anybody on a message board.


Very true, but he had the support of Paharon and another poster who is currently serving a mission (cjcampbell). The latter two argued that we should not judge these murderers because we might have done the same thing.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Well, among my favorites are such important disclosures as the existence of a full-scale reproduction of the Oval Office in the Washington DC Temple, from which the Mormons will rule the country after their coup; the drinking of blood from human skull mugs in the Holy of Holies in Salt Lake City; and the use of Boy Scout training to prepare a Mormon paramilitary force. I could multiply such things for hours, but those will do.


Think about this, Dan. Which is more likely to make a believing Mormon doubt? These sort of wild claims or the solid, factually based claims of Quinn and Compton?

We're talking about why leaders don't want members to read anti-mormon literature. Your stance is that the works of Quinn and Compton would not be reasonably considered anti-mormon literature, so the brethren aren't trying to dissuade members from reading that sort of literature. Instead, the brethren are apparently worried that members will read Ed Deckers' claims that people drink blood from human skull mugs in the Holy of Holies, and, I guess, BELIEVE IT.

This is why I think you're wrong in your conclusions. I think that the brethren would really prefer that members not read Quinn's careful works that demonstrate, among many other things, that there is no contemporary evidence of a M priesthood restoration. Or demonstrates the redaction of history and scriptures. I think they would far rather members not read Compton's book that talks about Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives, and carefully supports that claim with facts.

You, on the other hand, think the brethren are worried about members reading that Mormons drink blood out of human skulls and lose faith over that.

Just how stupid do the brethren think their followers are?




There's no "taboo" on reading the Tanners. I can see one of their books from where I'm typing right now.

But Quinn, despite his flaws, is a serious scholar. Jerald Tanner, despite his strengths, was not.


So not even the Tanners count as "anti-mormon" literature now? Just what was the GA in the OP warning against?

Of course the brethren consider the Tanners "anti Mormon". You know they do. I believe their claims are far more troubling than the wild Decker claims you cite above. Their claims are usually factually based, with the exception of their evangelical-based diatribes. They even usually provide photocopies of the pages they cite in their material. In fact, I've heard it rumored that even faithful "new historians" owe the Tanners a debt of gratitude for making some material accessible. So whether or not Tanner was a scholar with what he did with the material, he presented an abundance of historical material.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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