so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

[_asbestosman]

abestosman, I'm sorry for what I wrote this morning. I know that God does those things and much more for many, many people. I was being flippant and I apologize. I realize that He fulfills what is needed in the realm of comfort for many.

No worries as I wasn't offended. I understand that the problem of evil is a big thing for many people. Indeed that point was driven home to me on my mission in an interesting way. I could tell the story if you're interested, but the point is I believe it's understandable for people to question God on account of that.

I know that many view God exclusively as a source of comfort for which His reality can merely be believed instead of actual. I and many other of course believe that God not only exists in actuality but that he fulfills more rolls than just that of bringing comfort and hope and as such I think that if He didn't exist we would notice His absence.

Again, I understand that many will disagree and many of those because of the PoE.

[_mentalgymnast]

A few comments:

1. If we are constrained in what we can ask for, in our prayers, our agency is the victim. Pray for world peace, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to end world hunger, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to find your car keys, and then look for them! I've never heard of anyone having their car keys appear in their hand after they prayed about it. Even finding car keys requires action.

2. If finding lost car keys is important (can't get to work, can't take children to school, missed plane so didn't go to training so got fired so family is now homeless) then I don't see why asking for a little help is such a bad thing. Who are we to judge what is important in each life?

3. Just because we live in a place where we don't have neighbors who go to war against us doesn't mean we all have an easy life. The consequences of our choices follow us, no matter where we live. Those who live in Africa and have unprotected sex with multiple partners are quite likely to catch AIDS. That is a consequence of their choice. That the resulting children also have AIDS is a consequence of the parents' choice. Why should God remove the consequence of the parents choice? To do so would negate their agency. Is the child worth more to God than the parents? Blame the parents, not God. Same goes for the warring tribes. It's their choice to go to war, their choice to attack children with machetes. Blame the tribesmen, not God. Were he to take their agency away, he could do the same to us.

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.

I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

This is exactly how I would have responded to this post had you not done it first.

It just goes to show that god is a superfluous part of the reality equation. I can help the poor. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay helping the poor. I can look for my car keys. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay finding my car keys.

There is no doubt that praying works... as long as you count the few hits and ignore the millions of misses, or call them "God said no."

Is the right question being asked?

Seems as though the question being asked is why God doesn't intervene in one situation but does in another. The complete question should be, at least in my opinion, "When prayers are answered, what can I attribute that to... and when prayers aren't answered, what can I attribute that to? Asking the question in this manner provides the opportunity to look at things in a broader fashion. To attribute the answering of prayers to God all the time is a bit of a stretch. That's why it's bantered around here by some as being an impossibility/improbability. I agree. So where does that leave us? A few alternatives among others. 1. We answer our own prayer by listening to our better selves/concience (source is neurological). 2. Other spirit beings/personalities provide inspiration/guidance/help. 3.The Holy Ghost and his/her helpers provide inspiration/guidance. 4.Life happens and we attribute whatever happens to an answer to prayer.

The lost car keys can fit into anyone of these scenarios and God is free to go about doing whatever else he's got planned for the day.

OTOH, in thinking about the second part of the question that I asked as it relates to prayers that aren't answered...which again I think is the right one to be asking...I come to the realization that the answer isn't much different than the answer to the first part. 1.We don't hear anything of substance from our better selves/concience. 2. For whatever reason other spirit beings/personalities are unwilling or unable because of conditions (environmental or what have you) to have any real influence. 3. The Holy Ghost and his/her helpers are willing, but unable because of conditions (again, environmental or what have you) to have potent influence. 4. Life happens and people die, experience extreme pain/discomfort, don't find their keys, etc.

To place God right smack dab in the middle of all this is unrealistic. It becomes a cop out for not believing in God. Millions of apparent misses...and again I repeat apparent misses...don't necessarily have to be placed directly and immediately in the lap of God. Why in the world would you expect him to carry this/these impossible burden(s), at least all by himself, anyway?

And when prayers aren't being offered up and we are simply making observations as to the apparent inequalities in God's justice, mercy, action vs. inaction, etc., I think the answers to these dilemmas through the processes of rational thought are an exercise in futility.

Regards,
MG

[_barrelomonkeys]

abestosman, I'm sorry for what I wrote this morning. I know that God does those things and much more for many, many people. I was being flippant and I apologize. I realize that He fulfills what is needed in the realm of comfort for many.

No worries as I wasn't offended. I understand that the problem of evil is a big thing for many people. Indeed that point was driven home to me on my mission in an interesting way. I could tell the story if you're interested, but the point is I believe it's understandable for people to question God on account of that.

I know that many view God exclusively as a source of comfort for which His reality can merely be believed instead of actual. I and many other of course believe that God not only exists in actuality but that he fulfills more rolls than just that of bringing comfort and hope and as such I think that if He didn't exist we would notice His absence.

Again, I understand that many will disagree and many of those because of the PoE.

Well I would like to hear the story.

I recognize that many people find more than just comfort in Christ. I know this and I've been hasty with my generalizations and typed things I now regret. I'm glad you weren't offended.

[_evolving]

This may be a slight derail of the thread - Sorry Sethbag __ but this is what I learned in Sacrament meeting yesterday -With no embellishments – I promise!
Our loving Bishop must be going through a slew of meetings where the callings he attempts to bestow upon his people get rejected. He initiated testimony by blasting “the LAZY” people in the ward(you know who you are) who are determined to coast on the coat-tails of those who work 20+ hours a week magnifying their callings. He shared a little story about an older lady he was counseling for depression. Apparently she is feeling like she is contributing to the “sweating of blood” pain in the garden, and it keeps her up at night, she has arthritis, and cannot fulfill her calling as she wants to. According to him this non-function in a calling is acceptable to a loving all-knowing god, but to the ones who are capable and knowingly ask to be released or not accept whatever god-inspired calling he asks of the person. His voice raised “Jesus will JUDGE you harshly! and he fears for their eternal souls
– then this mind-blowing connection..
two weeks ago the SP gave a talk on missionary work through service, three days later non-typical rains caused a few houses to be flood in Traverse Mountain including some non-members homes. – members of the stake were called out and showed up to help these unfortunate home-owners. para-quote “I believe it rained and flooded, to test the saints, and to show the no-mo owners of the flooded homes how we can rally together to help” he continued on for what seemed like 10 minutes belaboring this point, hoping the flood victims will eventually come into the church because they were given the ultimate show of service by the good ones who showed up, and members need to see how god is in control of everything. God is so loving and wanting all of his children to serve in callings to the fullest they can. If we don’t serve, Jesus will be waiting, with the other judges in Israel(I assume he meant himself). To condemn those slackers to eternal damnation and endless misery & woe! I did not feel an ounce of guilt during his 20 minute diatribe I think that means the brain clamps are mostly off now. Thanks be to the almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[_Jason Bourne]

So today we had a bunch of young 6 year olds (or thereabouts) get up and bear their testimonkeys, followed by some teenagers. And then a woman got up and, I kid you not, told us how God helped her find her car keys. I am not joking. They'd been missing for a whole week and she was starting to despair, and not ten minutes after she finally knelt and prayed to God to help her find the keys, the Holy Ghost lead her to look under a particular couch cushion, and there they were. Thank God. We had a few boring travelogs, and then it was over, and I went home*.

I just had to chuckle inside at the "God helped me find my keys" testimony.

After sacrament, while people were getting up to go to their next class, I remarked to my 14-year old daughter that isn't it interesting that there are kids in Africa starving, dieing of AIDS, and getting their limbs hacked off with machetes, and God doesn't seem to do anything to help them, but God sure is interested in helping us overweight, middle-class, American white folks find our keys. Halleluja! My daughter knows I think this way, and I think she actually gets it. Good for her. I can only hope, as she enters adulthood, that she does so with rational and critical thinking faculties intact. If that happens, my mission will have been accomplished.

*my wife makes me go to Sacrament meeting, but it's been probably a good six months or more since I went to SS or PM.

I had a similar diiscussion with my wife but it just pissed her off.

Testimony 1: Girl at girls camp losed CTR ring in lake. Two leaders pray and find it ten minutes later. God answered their prayer.

Testimony 2: Stake activities director prayed that it would not rain on a big stake picnic. Rain was forecasted. It did not rain. God answered the prayer for no rain.

I hate to be condescending about it though. But I asked my wife if she thought the people ever thought this through. God helped find the ring and keep the rain away, but the mom who prayed her kid in Iraq will be safe may be disappointed. Plus all the stuff you listed.

I don't know. Maybe I am just mad that when I was 8 and lost my favorite pocket knife and prayed for a week that God woudl help me find it but never did.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't really get the car keys blessing. I'm just astounded that people are so unaware of the amount of suffering in the rest of the world.

I can understand that POV. But if we were so concerned about "suffering in the rest of the world", why do we do so little about it, ourselves? Are you prepared to give up your microwave, your video recorder, your car, and all of your modern technology, to solve the problems of the rest of the world? Just think what we could do if everyone gave up modern luxuries and lived more simply, and all gave that money to help others?

Let's face it Barrel, we are all flaming hypocrites. Worried about your next your next home insurance payment - while an African starves to death?

Good point

[_Runtu]

In our sacrament meeting yesterday, a philosophy professor said, "I cannot understand how a rational human being could lose their testimony and believe the church was false." Other than that, it was pretty uneventful. An elderly woman said she liked to blow kisses out the window as she drove through our neighborhood because she loves us so much (I thought that was kind of sweet). And an old man talked about his experiences as a military chaplain.

[_Some Schmo]

Is the right question being asked?

Seems as though the question being asked is why God doesn't intervene in one situation but does in another. The complete question should be, at least in my opinion, "When prayers are answered, what can I attribute that to... and when prayers aren't answered, what can I attribute that to? Asking the question in this manner provides the opportunity to look at things in a broader fashion. To attribute the answering of prayers to God all the time is a bit of a stretch. That's why it's bantered around here by some as being an impossibility/improbability. I agree. So where does that leave us? A few alternatives among others. 1. We answer our own prayer by listening to our better selves/concience (source is neurological). 2. Other spirit beings/personalities provide inspiration/guidance/help. 3.The Holy Ghost and his/her helpers provide inspiration/guidance. 4.Life happens and we attribute whatever happens to an answer to prayer.

The lost car keys can fit into anyone of these scenarios and God is free to go about doing whatever else he's got planned for the day.

OTOH, in thinking about the second part of the question that I asked as it relates to prayers that aren't answered...which again I think is the right one to be asking...I come to the realization that the answer isn't much different than the answer to the first part. 1.We don't hear anything of substance from our better selves/concience. 2. For whatever reason other spirit beings/personalities are unwilling or unable because of conditions (environmental or what have you) to have any real influence. 3. The Holy Ghost and his/her helpers are willing, but unable because of conditions (again, environmental or what have you) to have potent influence. 4. Life happens and people die, experience extreme pain/discomfort, don't find their keys, etc.

To place God right smack dab in the middle of all this is unrealistic. It becomes a cop out for not believing in God. Millions of apparent misses...and again I repeat apparent misses...don't necessarily have to be placed directly and immediately in the lap of God. Why in the world would you expect him to carry this/these impossible burden(s), at least all by himself, anyway?

And when prayers aren't being offered up and we are simply making observations as to the apparent inequalities in God's justice, mercy, action vs. inaction, etc., I think the answers to these dilemmas through the processes of rational thought are an exercise in futility.

Regards,
MG

One would only phrase the question the way you did if they thought god really existed and really answered prayers. For a person who doesn't believe that stuff, the appropriate question most certainly is, "why God doesn't intervene in one situation but does in another."

And by the way, the concept of god I'm familiar with is one where god is omnipotent. One would think that if he can hear all prayers (pretty powerful) he should be able to answer them too... unless just listening to them is taxing enough (if so... not omnipotent).

I'm willing to bet that god answers prayers in the affirmative with about the same statistical frequency as psychics accurately predict the future.

[_wenglund]

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

Some parents believe that mentally conditioning a child to "know" something that they can't possibly really know, is really cute. Let's get our children to follow in our own footsteps. If we start while they're young, we have the best chance of getting them for life! Give me a break. My daughter isn't cynical or distrusting at all, however she's also growing up with a rational faculty and the ability to exercise critical thinking and sound judgment. If rational thought, critical thinking, and sound judgment are the opposites of kids raised with the mental conditioning of kids of belief in something they know really nothing about, then I'm all for it.

Fortunately for some of us, through a broader application of rational thought, critical thinking skills, and sound judgement, and because our epistemics aren't restricted narrow-mindedly to things that are "knowable", but, by way of inductive reasoning, include matters of faith, probabilities, uncertainty, and relative "unknowns", we don't view the available options in such overly simplistic and binary terms like you just described. To each their own.

I am glad to hear, though, that your daughter isn't cynical or distrusting. Perhaps she takes more after her mother. ;-)

If both sets of parents are successful in their mission, which of their children do you suppose will be most likely to succeed in life as well as be instrumental in diminishing many of life's disparities (enabling the starving Africans to attain food, the sick to heal, and help the war and violence-ridden communities to find peace)? Which of the children will be best suited to uplift and improve themselves as well as help others do the same? Which of the children may best be able to find comfort and solace for themselves and give the same to others following a broad range of sorrows and tribulations?

My daughter, by far, because she will recognize that these problems aren't going to be solved unless she and others do something about it. On the other hand, you'll have good, stalwart LDS people who will occasionally toss a mention of the plight of others into a prayer, and then go on with their lives feeling good because they've been thoughtful enough to ask God to do something about it.

While that may be true in the specific and perhaps exceptional cases you just mentioned, my question was intended to address the general rule--i.e. whether cynical and distrusting people are more or less likely than loving and trusting people to involve themselves in self-improvement and in correcting life's disparities (such as starvation in Africa and so forth). I think that reason and critical thinking would suggests that because cynicism tends to be a de-motivator and destructive, whereas love tends to be highly motivative and constructive, that loving people would be more likely to be involved in the previously mentioned things. I suspect, too, that social statistics would bear this out.

And, if so, then the rational and critical thinking parents would want to factor this in when making sound judgements as to what to make it their "mission" when teaching their children. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_asbestosman]

I understand that the problem of evil is a big thing for many people. Indeed that point was driven home to me on my mission in an interesting way. I could tell the story if you're interested

Well I would like to hear the story.

I'm in a rush, so I hope this does it justice especially considering that I'm more of an engineer than storyteller.

In what was my most difficult city I was tracting as usual. This city was really depressing to me (although looking back it was probably my attitude more than anything). People rejected the message based on what their pastor said or for what I thought were completely silly reasons such as the fact that we used bikes and tracted on Sunday (many Calvinists in the area). One Calvinist group even had recently given a sermon about Mormons including that Jesus and Satan are brothers and we got to talk to that pastor and see their newletter about us too.

Well, on one strange day of tracting it seemed that we were getting a lot of people who dismissed us on the basis of the problem of evil. In particular many spoke of the atrocities religious people did to themselves even in Christian Ireland. Worse was the fact that one of the ladies we were speaking to had connections to a former member and also current members of that city's LDS branch. She was mostly polite though. Still, I was convinced that the PoE thing was more of a silly excuse for people who simply didn't want to believe in God.

The evening came and I went out for tracting again. This time I ran into someone from the Middle East who let us in on the basis that we were different from other religions. It was hard for me to follow his precise words and I don't recall whether he was speaking to me in English or in my mission's tongue, but his message was clear. He had seen his family suffer greatly. He, who grew up a devout Muslim, had come to question the existence of God over it. It really struck me that this was indeed the case for him and not due to laziness on his part. There really wasn't much we could offer, but he agreed to take our Book of Mormon and look at it but that he would contact us if he had more interest but currently that was not the case and that returning uninvited would not be appreciated.