Will September Dawn drive chapel Mormons to research more?

[_beastie]

Nehor,

The vast majority of posters at RFM post anonymously, so the fact that they post at RFM is hardly proof that they aren't concerned information could be used against them in a church court (for those who wish to retain membership for some reason), Personally, I suspect that if their real names were used, the information would regularly be used against them in a church court.

[_Mister Scratch]

Scratch, every time the SCMC comes up you bring up as your star witness is a 15 year old story from a guy who says he had a discussion with someone at their behest.

That's not true, Nehor. My "star witness[es]" are the scholars and reporters like Quinn, Ostling, and Krakauer, who have actually taken the time to do their research. The reason I take the time to examine DCP's account is that he is the only pro-LDS "eye witness" who is willing to try and defend the SCMC on experiential ground.

Yet you paint it as a monolithic spy agency.

Bull. YOU and other TBMs paint me as painting it that way. I report the facts as I understand them. If, in doing so, it happens to seem to you that the SCMC is rather like a "monolithic spy agency," and yet you continue to blow off your impressions, what might that be telling you?

If they are halfway as secretive and collecting as you seem to think where are the stories. Exmormons should be screaming out about how their pasts were used against them at secret Church courts. You could argue that ex-LDS are cowed into silence but then you click on RFM.......and it's just not so.

There are plenty of stories. And anyways, you could say basically the same thing about any "espionage" agency. How often to you hear people "screaming" about the CIA? Or the FBI? Such is the nature of these types of organizations.

[_The Nehor]

Scratch, every time the SCMC comes up you bring up as your star witness is a 15 year old story from a guy who says he had a discussion with someone at their behest.

That's not true, Nehor. My "star witness[es]" are the scholars and reporters like Quinn, Ostling, and Krakauer, who have actually taken the time to do their research. The reason I take the time to examine DCP's account is that he is the only pro-LDS "eye witness" who is willing to try and defend the SCMC on experiential ground.

Yet you paint it as a monolithic spy agency.

Bull. YOU and other TBMs paint me as painting it that way. I report the facts as I understand them. If, in doing so, it happens to seem to you that the SCMC is rather like a "monolithic spy agency," and yet you continue to blow off your impressions, what might that be telling you?

If they are halfway as secretive and collecting as you seem to think where are the stories. Exmormons should be screaming out about how their pasts were used against them at secret Church courts. You could argue that ex-LDS are cowed into silence but then you click on RFM.......and it's just not so.

There are plenty of stories. And anyways, you could say basically the same thing about any "espionage" agency. How often to you hear people "screaming" about the CIA? Or the FBI? Such is the nature of these types of organizations.

Quinn's evidence seemed to me to stem entirely from a few anecdotes from very, very paranoid people.

You do represent it as being some kind of spy agency. My impression was solidified when you warned me that they probably have a file on me.

I hear things about the FBI and CIA all the time. When things come to trial they step in and provide evidence that the criminals know could only come from intensive surveillance. Why haven't the ex-Mormons who have been excommunicated reported this kind of evidence coming forward. Unless you're suggesting that they're not allowed to leave the building alive after the Danites are done working them over some of them should have stepped forward particularly if they can be anonymous while doing so (which they can). Either they are an innocuous paper-clipping service or they're storing vast amounts of information and never using it or they're using that information to ex people and for some reason people are all quiet about it.

The second scenario would need testimony from the inside, the third would need a reason for people to keep quiet, and the first seems plausible.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor,

The vast majority of posters at RFM post anonymously, so the fact that they post at RFM is hardly proof that they aren't concerned information could be used against them in a church court (for those who wish to retain membership for some reason), Personally, I suspect that if their real names were used, the information would regularly be used against them in a church court.

If they post anonymously the ex-Mormons should happily share their SCMC stories though. That was my point. I'm not sure why people who hate the Church want to retain their membership though.

[_Mister Scratch]

Quinn's evidence seemed to me to stem entirely from a few anecdotes from very, very paranoid people.

You do represent it as being some kind of spy agency. My impression was solidified when you warned me that they probably have a file on me.

C'mon, Nehor. That was a joke.

I hear things about the FBI and CIA all the time.

You do? 'Cause I sure don't! Are you sure this isn't a sign of your own paranoia? It is worth bearing in mind that the SCMC would operate on a much smaller scale.

When things come to trial they step in and provide evidence that the criminals know could only come from intensive surveillance. Why haven't the ex-Mormons who have been excommunicated reported this kind of evidence coming forward.

They have. Cf. Meg Toscano's interview on The Mormons. Sometimes, I'm sure, these ex-mos are unaware of the fact that their disciplinary councils have a file on them. Perhaps their SPs talk things over with them, and they (i.e., the exmos) never realize that the evidence being cited by the SP, has been culled by the SCMC.

Unless you're suggesting that they're not allowed to leave the building alive after the Danites are done working them over some of them should have stepped forward particularly if they can be anonymous while doing so (which they can). Either they are an innocuous paper-clipping service or they're storing vast amounts of information and never using it or they're using that information to ex people and for some reason people are all quiet about it.

Which logical fallacy is this again? Oh yeah---the false dichotomy. I really think the truth is somewhere in between the "innocuous paper-clipping service" and the "vast spy agency." They *are* using the information to ex people. People are NOT "all quiet about it."

The second scenario would need testimony from the inside, the third would need a reason for people to keep quiet, and the first seems plausible.

As Uncle Dale's report demonstrated, there often is a good reason for people to keep quiet: They have been threatened with divorce and all the other attendent stigma that come with ecclesiastical punishment.

[_The Nehor]

C'mon, Nehor. That was a joke.

You do? 'Cause I sure don't! Are you sure this isn't a sign of your own paranoia? It is worth bearing in mind that the SCMC would operate on a much smaller scale.

Sure didn't sound like a joke, it went back and forth for a few pages. Quite a bit of effort on your part for a chuckle.

The FBI is much more prominent. But then I have a hobby of studying law and crime on an amateur level. Their stuff is all over the place if you look. The CIA is much dirtier and more secretive but you can see it's handiwork through time. The difference is that the CIA is involved in toppling governments and assasinating people. The SCMC is collecting data.

[_Mister Scratch]

C'mon, Nehor. That was a joke.

You do? 'Cause I sure don't! Are you sure this isn't a sign of your own paranoia? It is worth bearing in mind that the SCMC would operate on a much smaller scale.

Sure didn't sound like a joke, it went back and forth for a few pages.

Go ahead and cite it for me, Nehor. Let's see if I "went back and forth for a few pages" trying to convince you that you have a file.

The FBI is much more prominent. But then I have a hobby of studying law and crime on an amateur level. Their stuff is all over the place if you look. The CIA is much dirtier and more secretive but you can see it's handiwork through time. The difference is that the CIA is involved in toppling governments and assasinating people. The SCMC is collecting data.

...and "toppling" marriages, and ruining careers, and upturning lives, etc., etc., etc.

[_The Nehor]

Go ahead and cite it for me, Nehor. Let's see if I "went back and forth for a few pages" trying to convince you that you have a file.

I'll try and find it for you. You didn't go back and forth, WE went back and forth.

[_The Nehor]

Go ahead and cite it for me, Nehor. Let's see if I "went back and forth for a few pages" trying to convince you that you have a file.

I'll try and find it for you. You didn't go back and forth, WE went back and forth.

Okay, here is the topic I remember: http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... file+nehor

I didn't reread the whole thing but I now believe I was wrong in how the discussion of my file came up and the way the discussion went. It was much more focussed on why I should be afraid of the Committee than whether I had a file or not. I apologize and offer only in my defense that it was many months ago.

[_Daniel Peterson]

...and "toppling" marriages, and ruining careers, and upturning lives, etc., etc., etc.

Pure paranoid nonsense.