Is anyone else tired of Evangelical Atheism?

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_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Some Schmo wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
wenglund wrote: Mere semantics, Runtu.


Actually, religion does have its uses... We need a place for the special ed kids to go, right? Where would Wade go on Sundays to color and stuff?

Thanks, -Some Schmo-


Oh! Schmo! That hurts me! Seriously.

:(


Now why would that hurt you?


Because I have a lot of empathy?

I teach children in special education. I also have a daughter that has autism and is called names (although I'd stack her IQ against anyone on this board) and know how much pain these children feel. I'm their advocate. It hurts me to know that someone that I believe is a good person would not know that these jokes hurt people... people I love very, very much.

Being in special education merely means you learn differently than others. I love learning how individual these children are and helping them learn that the problem is not with them, it is with our educational system that doesn't individualize instruction. Every time some thoughtless remark is made I see all the effort I put in to helping these children with self worth flung out the window. It's rather disappointing and disheartening.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

barrelomonkeys wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
wenglund wrote: Mere semantics, Runtu.


Actually, religion does have its uses... We need a place for the special ed kids to go, right? Where would Wade go on Sundays to color and stuff?

Thanks, -Some Schmo-


Oh! Schmo! That hurts me! Seriously.

:(


Now why would that hurt you?


Because I have a lot of empathy?

I teach children in special education. I also have a daughter that has autism and is called names (although I'd stack her IQ against anyone on this board) and know how much pain these children feel. I'm their advocate. It hurts me to know that someone that I believe is a good person would not know that these jokes hurt people... people I love very, very much.

Being in special education merely means you learn differently than others. I love learning how individual these children are and helping them learn that the problem is not with them, it is with our educational system that doesn't individualize instruction. Every time some thoughtless remark is made I see all the effort I put in to helping these children with self worth flung out the window. It's rather disappointing and disheartening.


So what you're really saying is, "Don't compare Wade to special ed kids. That's an insult to special ed kids."

Point well taken.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Some Schmo wrote:
So what you're really saying is, "Don't compare Wade to special ed kids. That's an insult to special ed kids."

Point well taken.

Actually what I'm saying (ignoring your attempt at humor at something I see no humor in) is that these children are children. They are individuals. Some are gifted and others have mental retardation. They each struggle with self worth and socialization. It is painful for them... they are children! I just suppose my humor only goes as far as hurting other adults. I can't find humor at swipes made at such beautiful, unique children.


They are bright, inquisitive minds that are pushed aside by our educational system because teachers didn't (or would not) take the time to figure out the key to unlocking and stimulating their brains. The problems are not with these children, the problem is with us and our inability to care enough for them to work at teaching them. I do care. My job is finding that special way that they can learn. And they can! I am pained when they are lumped together and as if it is an insult that they come to see me! They are BLESSED each time they walk in my room. That is the only room where they know I look at them, respect them, value them and love them! So make fun! :P

And when you do know that I pity you for not seeing such beauty where I do.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

barrelomonkeys wrote:...these children are children. They are individuals. Some are gifted and others have mental retardation. They each struggle with self worth and socialization. It is painful for them... they are children! I just suppose my humor only goes as far as hurting other adults. I can't find humor at swipes made at such beautiful, unique children.

They are bright, inquisitive minds that are pushed aside by our educational system because teachers didn't (or would not) take the time to figure out the key to unlocking and stimulating their brains. The problems are not with these children, the problem is with us and our inability to care enough for them to work at teaching them. I do care. My job is finding that special way that they can learn. And they can! I am pained when they are lumped together and as if it is an insult that they come to see me! They are BLESSED each time they walk in my room.


You won't get any argument from me on this. I completely agree.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Some Schmo wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:...these children are children. They are individuals. Some are gifted and others have mental retardation. They each struggle with self worth and socialization. It is painful for them... they are children! I just suppose my humor only goes as far as hurting other adults. I can't find humor at swipes made at such beautiful, unique children.

They are bright, inquisitive minds that are pushed aside by our educational system because teachers didn't (or would not) take the time to figure out the key to unlocking and stimulating their brains. The problems are not with these children, the problem is with us and our inability to care enough for them to work at teaching them. I do care. My job is finding that special way that they can learn. And they can! I am pained when they are lumped together and as if it is an insult that they come to see me! They are BLESSED each time they walk in my room.


You won't get any argument from me on this. I completely agree.


:)
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Some Schmo wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
Now why would that hurt you?


Because I have a lot of empathy?

I teach children in special education. I also have a daughter that has autism and is called names (although I'd stack her IQ against anyone on this board) and know how much pain these children feel. I'm their advocate. It hurts me to know that someone that I believe is a good person would not know that these jokes hurt people... people I love very, very much.

Being in special education merely means you learn differently than others. I love learning how individual these children are and helping them learn that the problem is not with them, it is with our educational system that doesn't individualize instruction. Every time some thoughtless remark is made I see all the effort I put in to helping these children with self worth flung out the window. It's rather disappointing and disheartening.


So what you're really saying is, "Don't compare Wade to special ed kids. That's an insult to special ed kids."

Point well taken.


Actually, you missed the point--I believe on purpose.

You know very well that you were attempting to insult me and religionist in general using special ed. children. In other words, its obvious that you view special ed. children in an insulting way. Your "joke" was in extremely poor taste--which is to be expected of you. Fortunately for you, though, your socially repelling behavior is done under the cover of anonymity, which may account for why you seem inclined to "act out" and not be apologetic after having done so. What a guy!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

wenglund wrote: Actually, you missed the point--I believe on purpose.

You know very well that you were attempting to insult me and religionist in general using special ed. children. In other words, its obvious that you view special ed. children in an insulting way. Your "joke" was in extremely poor taste--which is to be expected of you. Fortunately for you, though, your socially repelling behavior is done under the cover of anonymity, which may account for why you seem inclined to "act out" and not be apologetic after having done so. What a guy!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


And you "know" all this in the same way you "know" the church is true? Based on a personal revelation?

How do you know I was joking? Maybe I really do think you deserve a place to color and paste macaroni in peace. Did you ever think of that?

"...socially repelling behavior..." hehehe - You're like an expert on this, huh?

Thanks, -Some Schmo-
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

wenglund wrote:I would think that were godlessness obviously a more benefitial world view, then extolling its virtues (via positive evangelizing), rather than ripping on religion, would be the most effective way of getting religions supposedly off your back and help build them up and see more clearly?

In other words, if the godless wish to diminish the influence of their religionist competitors and increase their own market share in the marketplace of ideas, they may best do so by clearly demonstrate (by persuasively positive reasoning and more so by the fruits of the quality of their lives) the supposed increased value and superiority of their product--this assumes, of course, that the product of godlessness may evidently have increased value and is superior to religion. Resorting to smearing the religionist merely suggests that their (your) godless product can't compete on its own merits, and so it takes tearing others down so as to better compete with their (your) evidently inferior product. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't agree with this. A common trait of a lot of religion is a condemnation of culture outside of the religion, on religious terms. The religionists learn to judge everyone else by the standards of their religious thoughts. They thus cannot accurately judge the non-religious, or even the religious from a different faith, because they're seeing everything through the lens of their own religion. One simple, trivial example is movies. Two of my all-time favorites are "The Shawshank Redemption" and "The Green Mile", both of which are rated R. For this simple reason, a lot of TBMs will biased against these movies, and never watch them, and assume they are filth. They will have nothing like an accurate understanding of the movies, or the movies' inherent quality. There are a great many other examples. When a religionist is so full of the explanations and judgments of things in terms of their own religion, then everyone else becomes "the World", "the great and spacious building", "the arm of flesh", etc. How could you expect anything like a realistic or positive comparison to be made?

I'm saying that atheists cannot demonstrate by the superiority of their "product", if you will, that their ideas are better, because the very values used to judge their product are inherently skewed to support the religionists' own beliefs. What example could the atheists use to demonstrate the superiority of their ideas to a hardcore Opus Dei member who whips themselves bloody every day in order to mortify their flesh and increase their slavish devotion to God? Is any example, by anyone else, going to have any convincing power?

On the contrary, Wade, I think that the key really is in arguing that the religionists' ideas themselves are wrong. The mind virus is so strong that no case, no matter how strong, could possibly convince some people, but others can still see it if presented in the right way. I doubt anyone could ever convince Osama bin Laden that in fact his religious ideas are wrong, but then, simply living a happier, healthier life wouldn't convince him either, as his religious values require him to condemn many aspects of the Western lifestyle, whether influenced by atheism or not.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_AmazingDisgrace
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Post by _AmazingDisgrace »

Sethbag wrote:I'm saying that atheists cannot demonstrate by the superiority of their "product", if you will, that their ideas are better, because the very values used to judge their product are inherently skewed to support the religionists' own beliefs. What example could the atheists use to demonstrate the superiority of their ideas to a hardcore Opus Dei member who whips themselves bloody every day in order to mortify their flesh and increase their slavish devotion to God? Is any example, by anyone else, going to have any convincing power?


That's a great point, Sethbag. The complete Mormon belief system comes with its own tailor-made epistemology, designed to produce only one acceptable answer: the church is true. The theory is laid out in Alma's seed experiment - test the seed, but if it fails to grow, it's because you cast it out by your unbelief or didn't plant it in good soil. There's no possible way you might just be working with a bad seed. And it works the same way in actual practice, too. Tell the missionaries or your bishop that you didn't receive an answer about the Book of Mormon, or that the answer was no, and their reply, in essence, will be, "you're doing it wrong." It's a great system for convincing others to convince themselves of a particular belief, just as long they don't try it on anything else.

I can't think of any way that an atheist could demonstrate product superiority to a Mormon, because if the atheist is happy, the Mormon just says, "think how much happier he would be if he had the gospel." How about, "they have temporary happiness, but they don't have lasting joy." Or, "they're happy because of the gospel principles they do have, like close families, honesty, and staying out of debt." Somehow, success outside of Mormonism can always be co-opted to give Mormonism credit for any universal good idea or value.
"Every post you can hitch your faith on is a pie in the sky, chock full of lies, a tool we devise to make sinking stones fly"
The Shins - A Comet Appears
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

One horrible, unbecoming question:

Why do people on here continue trying to reason with Wade Englund? No doubt he's a nice fellow, but...reasoning with him? "Debating" him? Isn't that like the Patriots running up the score against the JV squad they're scrimmaging against? Why is it that every thread ends up being about how Wade Englund doesn't know what he's talking about? Aren't we already all clear on that?

I'm voting to let Wade be; from what I understand of his personal travails, he seems like he could use all the peace he can get.

Just my two/tenths of a cent,

Tal
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