How Do We Know Things?

[_Who Knows]

The claims (the premises) aren't the same.

Instead of going back and forth on this though, perhaps we can come to an agreement if we change the wording a bit, by saying '100% reliable'.

Perhaps that's even where our ultimate disagreement is.

[_Gazelam]

sigh.....

Ok, let me put this as simple as possible.

Most cultures, christian or otherwise, share a story of the Great Flood.

That beign said, Noah was a prophet of God. He saw and spoke with God, he carried the authority to act in his name, he spoke by th epower of the Spirit and confered the Gift of the Holy Ghost on others.

Soon some of his children rebelled against his teachigns and testimony and branched off. This pattern continued at the tower of Babel. The effects of this rebellion are witnessed in the writing from the time of Abraham, a righteous man travelling through a wicked world.

One of the things Abraham strived against was the worship of false Gods. whether these were the false Gods of the Egyptians, or any other culture Abraham came in contact with, the story is the same. There was only one true God, the God YAHWEH (John 8:56-59).

There is a clear and simple history of Gods dealing with his children. They may corrupt his teachigns, distort his ordinances, but the pattern is the same. God calls men to testify of him and teach his gospel. He requires us to make covenant with him and prove ourselves worthy of bearing his name.

The Holy Ghost testifies of all of this, He enters us and blesses and inspires our hearts and minds, enhancing the Spirit of the Lord, or Light of Christ that all of us inherently have.

The jews carried the authority to act in the name of God from Abraham to the Day of Christ, who declared them corrupt and restablished his Church. This Church was soon lost not long after the Apostles were slain, though the Catholic Church woudl declare that they had the authority to act in the Name of God from Peter. The authority to act in the name of God was restored again in our day through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

I mention this because the things I have said the Holy Ghost bears witness to. The Holy Ghost is edifying, it builds upon existing truths, making connections doctrine upon doctrine. No other faith does this, all fall short that are not the true church of God. I expressed at length how the Holy Ghost works, and he bears testimony of all I have said.

[_Blixa]

Gaz, there's a huge jump/break/chasm between this:

Most cultures, christian or otherwise, share a story of the Great Flood.

and this:

That beign said, Noah was a prophet of God...

One of seveal problems here is that after you make your first assertion in order to show a presumed universality of belief (and thus its alleged "truth"---another problematic slip) you then only take up Judeo/Christian traditions of prophesy and God's parenting. What happened to the rest? What accounts for the leap from a general statement of some verifiable truth (a similar myth occurs across many cultures) to asserting the Truth of one of those myths? In very simplistic terms what you've done is confuse World History with the history of literature...

[_Gazelam]

Is it that great a leap to say that those who broke away from Noahs family, or his grandchildrens family, carried the Flood story with them? A oral history is easily jumbled and made a mess of. So oyu have an oriental flood story, or an African flood story with different details but similar structure. The fact is that the great Flood was Noahs flood, and his apostate children screwed up the details in their accounts.

that's the beauty of the records of the Prophets (Isa. 54:9, Ezek. 14:14). You have Jesus Christ himself bearing testimony of Noah and the Flood (Matt. 24:37-38). You have the testimony of the Book of Mormon Prophets concerning Noah (Alma 10:22), You have Joseph Smith and the other prophets of our dispensation concerning Noah (D&C 84:14-15). that's how the Lord works. He builds one testimony upon another.

[_Gazelam]

Lets play a discerning of the Spirit Game:

1) A Shaker feels the "spirit" in a sunday meeting and throws himself on the ground in convulsions. Is that the true Holy Ghost? Why or why not?

2) An Indian spiritual leader says that he received a revelation stating that at the time of our death, if we are worthy, our spirits will merge with the great spirit into an ocean of the spiritual knowledge of God and we will ose ourselves in becoming one with Gods spiritual essence. Is that a true revelation? Why or why not?

3) An evangelical christian feels a strong spiritual belief in Christ but does not feel that baptism is necessary to truly worship Christ. Is that knowledge given by the Holy Ghost? Why or why not?

4) A "christian" feels that Jesus is the Christ, but does not feel compelled to believe in the idea of Adam and Eve. Is that feeling of God or is it not? Why or why not?

[_Runtu]

Is it that great a leap to say that those who broke away from Noahs family, or his grandchildrens family, carried the Flood story with them? A oral history is easily jumbled and made a mess of. So oyu have an oriental flood story, or an African flood story with different details but similar structure. The fact is that the great Flood was Noahs flood, and his apostate children screwed up the details in their accounts.

that's the beauty of the records of the Prophets (Isa. 54:9, Ezek. 14:14). You have Jesus Christ himself bearing testimony of Noah and the Flood (Matt. 24:37-38). You have the testimony of the Book of Mormon Prophets concerning Noah (Alma 10:22), You have Joseph Smith and the other prophets of our dispensation concerning Noah (D&C 84:14-15). that's how the Lord works. He builds one testimony upon another.

Hmmm.

My son stubbed his toe in Provo, Utah.
A child in Namibia stubbed his toe.
Vladimir Putin stubbed his toe.

Clearly, it's all the same event, just that some apostates screwed up the details.

[_ozemc]

Is it that great a leap to say that those who broke away from Noahs family, or his grandchildrens family, carried the Flood story with them? A oral history is easily jumbled and made a mess of. So oyu have an oriental flood story, or an African flood story with different details but similar structure. The fact is that the great Flood was Noahs flood, and his apostate children screwed up the details in their accounts.

that's the beauty of the records of the Prophets (Isa. 54:9, Ezek. 14:14). You have Jesus Christ himself bearing testimony of Noah and the Flood (Matt. 24:37-38). You have the testimony of the Book of Mormon Prophets concerning Noah (Alma 10:22), You have Joseph Smith and the other prophets of our dispensation concerning Noah (D&C 84:14-15). that's how the Lord works. He builds one testimony upon another.

Why is it, that whenever something that comes from other religions or wherever does not fit with the preconcieved story, then the other story is always screwed up by some "apostate" person?

Noah's "apostate" children.

The "apostate" church.

Etc., Etc.

Is it just possible, maybe just a little bit, that the reason the stories differ is because they're just stories?

By the way, if an oral story "is easily jumbled and made a mess of", then why should any old parts of the Old Testament be taken at face value? Or parts of the New as well?

Do we have exact stories that were written down by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah? Did they take pen to paper? (or reed to papyrus?)

No, it's ALL based on oral history.

[_Who Knows]

Tal's gone Gaz.

But why don't you tell us what you think?

in my opinion, there is no such thing as the HG, so of course none of them are 'experiencing' the HG. But of course, there's no way to know for sure I suppose. But what is quite apparent, is that they can't all be experiencing the HG. Yet at the same time, I'm sure all of them feel that they are. But, in my opinion, that's only because that's what they've been taught is the HG. Those are the 'fruits' of the HG, as they've been taught.

[_Runtu]

Tal's gone Gaz.

But why don't you tell us what you think?

in my opinion, there is no such thing as the HG, so of course none of them are 'experiencing' the HG. But of course, there's no way to know for sure I suppose. But what is quite apparent, is that they can't all be experiencing the HG. Yet at the same time, I'm sure all of them feel that they are. But, in my opinion, that's only because that's what they've been taught is the HG. Those are the 'fruits' of the HG, as they've been taught.

There's a simple way of discerning:

If their spiritual witness conformed to what I believe, it was indeed Christ. If it differed from what I believe, it wasn't from Christ.

[_ozemc]

Tal's gone Gaz.

But why don't you tell us what you think?

in my opinion, there is no such thing as the HG, so of course none of them are 'experiencing' the HG. But of course, there's no way to know for sure I suppose. But what is quite apparent, is that they can't all be experiencing the HG. Yet at the same time, I'm sure all of them feel that they are. But, in my opinion, that's only because that's what they've been taught is the HG. Those are the 'fruits' of the HG, as they've been taught.

There's a simple way of discerning:

If their spiritual witness conformed to what I believe, it was indeed Christ. If it differed from what I believe, it wasn't from Christ.

Is this kind of like "my daddy can beat up your daddy"?