5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

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_mentalgymnast
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Chap wrote:What on earth is this guy trying to say?


Relying on texts and/or historical documents...or lack thereof... isn't the primary reason that I choose to exercise faith/hope in Jesus Christ as the Savior. A few years ago after going through a period of questioning the existence of a creator/God, I, through a series of readings/events/experiences, made a choice to choose to believe in the possibility of a God. And as a result of that, in an afterlife that has purpose/meaning. Once that choice was made I then had to find a way to account for and explain the world as it is (all of the conundrums, evils, and unexplainables) and has been throughout the recorded history of mankind. In my mind I decided there had to be some sort of cosmic 'fail safe' plan that can/would make what is wrong/unfair, etc., right. Enter in an at-one-ment for all of mankind. Enter in Jesus Christ.

So I guess I come into this whole debate/question from the other end. Looking out (macro) and then coming back in (micro) rather than looking at it the other way around. I find myself doing the same thing with church history and even the Book of Mormon and PofGP.

But it is nice, and at times even helpful :wink: , to have the scriptures and the prophets to help clarify and add to the mix of all the knowledge that is available from many different/varied sources. Even if they too have a hard/difficult time wrapping their own minds around the workings/mind of God.

Regards,
MG
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jersey Girl wrote:Cam, Please do not take this as me wanting to disinvite you from this board, because I think you make a great contribution here when you're of a mind to. But please stfu with this tedious b***s***, okay?


Well, you just say stuff. And when someone wants you to clarify you act mystified or offended that someone would do that.

Look. You're the one making assertions. It's not unusual for people to want you to back up the assertion you're making. You're the initiating hostilities, so please check yo' self befo' you wreck yo' self.

That said, I think you could draw some parallels between the evolution of Mormon theology along with its record keep with that of the early Christians. There was a whole lot of mysticism, factions, and various people making various claims. Hence the reason why the Gospels contradict themselves, and the need for a 'correlation committee' in Nicene.

What's more likely? That Joseph Smith Jesus Christ as we know him today existed in that form in the narrative presented by early Christian theologians... Or it's all made up?

What proof other than what exists would you like in order to legitimize the claim that the Jesus you know certainly didn't exist?

V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I have a question wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Before you hit the submit button when you posted it. So, you're SOL from here on out. SOL not to be confused with the statute of limitations.


I can't seem to find where that's written in the board rules....


The rules? The rules are more like guidelines. ;-)

I think there are two elements (maybe three) to the Jesus debate.
1. Did Jesus really exist?


I think you have to dig through what you can and sort that out for yourself.

2. Did Jesus actually do what the Gospels claim he did?


I think that's unknowable.

3. If the answer to 1 and 2 is yes or no, what relevance does that have for us today?


I suppose if you come up with the answer that you don't believe that Jesus existed or that you don't believe he actually did the things that the Gospel authors claim that he did, you could always use the scriptures to form a kind of philosophy for living.

Or not.

Seriously, though. If you're strongly interested in this topic, check out the link that EA provided. That will take you to what I think of as an awesome and informative thread. Read the comments provided by Aristotle and Kish, and see what you think about it.

I'm not here to change your mind about anything either way.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Oh sweet mother! Okay, I finished what I was working on and now I'm all yours for like 5 seconds, okay? This is going to be an aside to you. Just for you. Only you. Feeling special yet?

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, you just say stuff.


This board is literally filled with people who are just saying stuff. I say stuff. You say stuff. We all say stuff. No really, it's in print and everything.

And when someone wants you to clarify you act mystified or offended that someone would do that.


I question why you seem to be challenging me as qualified to participate on this topic when what I actually did was pose questions, predicted how I think the thread would play out based on 15 years of experience, and recommended two posters as well qualified to engage the topic. Did you think I was recommending myself?

Look. You're the one making assertions. It's not unusual for people to want you to back up the assertion you're making. You're the initiating hostilities, so please check yo' self befo' you wreck yo' self.


Buddy, stop making personal remarks to and about me when you don't like what you read, then there wouldn't be any sub topic woven through this thread. Was asking questions initiating hostilities, antischock8? Have the predictions that I made about the thread become realized yet? If not, give it a little time and every swinging dick on this board that doesn't know jack about the topic will fill it right up with prophecy fulfilled and jettison to obscurity any valid or useful information such as that that Aristotle and EA have posted here.

If Kish should happen to show up on this thread, you've got yourselves a trifecta, and would you appreciate it or even be able to find it in the rubble of personal remarks and bantering on this thread? Can you tolerate for one second reading what you see as a negative remark by someone like me and just let it ride like I let ride all the negative remarks I read on this board regularly? Hell, I'd have to work day and night to match the post count of those who regularly make mocking, jeering, negative and low down disrespectful remarks about people and their beliefs on this board, Mormons and Mormonism of course, being a main theme.

Try a little delayed gratification once in a while, it won't kill you. I promise.

That said, I think you could draw some parallels between the evolution of Mormon theology along with its record keep with that of the early Christians. There was a whole lot of mysticism, factions, and various people making various claims. Hence the reason why the Gospels contradict themselves, and the need for a 'correlation committee' in Nicene.


Oh god. Okay, I think you could draw parallels between the development of Mormonism and Christianity as well, if it weren't for the fact that the arguments made against the historical Jesus often rely on conjecture without the application of common sense. Take a look at the questions that I posed to Aristotle and his answers. These are common sense questions with common sense answers that I don't see being asked in direct challenge to the assertions made to the OP itself. His answers lead out to other sub topics for study.

Do you want to learn or do you guys want someone to feed you crap like you think the Mormon church did? Either way is good with me, just don't put it up here followed by a ton of head nodding, mockery and personal remarks about someone like me who wades in here to make inquiry when you don't like what the crap I'm saying about what I see with my own eyes on this board daily and for years on end, including a total of 15 years online on boards like this one.

What's more likely? That Joseph Smith Jesus Christ as we know him today existed in that form in the narrative presented by early Christian theologians... Or it's all made up?


I don't know the answer to that, do you? I leave room for my ideas and position to change based on what I find when I feel like researching more, like following leads from people like Aristotle and Kish who know what they're talking about.

What proof other than what exists would you like in order to legitimize the claim that the Jesus you know certainly didn't exist?

V/R
Doc


I don't require rock solid proof.

What else do we need to discuss before you get me out of your gut, Cam? It's not me following you around calling you names, so get it out of your gut now, buddy. Because I'm not going anywhere. If you want to put a little target on my screen name, you go right ahead. I'll shoot back when and if I feel like it. Other than that, I don't really give a damn.
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:10 am, edited 6 times in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ceeboo
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Ceeboo »

Awesome!
Another Jesus never existed thread.

Aristotle Smith wrote:
No, I would not. As an example of why, take another famous Jew from the 1st century A.D., Philo of Alexandria. He lived in the academic center of the Roman Empire, Alexandria. He is extremely important example of middle Platonism. We know from Josephus that he represented the case of Alexandrian Jews before the emperor Caligula.


Well yeah - If you want to discuss what Josephus wrote about a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher named Philo - I have no problem believing that.

But - If you want to discuss what this very same first-century Roman scholar - Josephus - wrote about Jesus (and/or John the Baptist and James) I have a huge problem with that! :lol:

there are 21 birth certificates extant of Roman citizens and 34 from Greek Egypt. Given that I'm sure there were more than 55 people who lived in the Ancient Roman Empire, I'm guessing the odds of finding a birth certificate for a given individual is essentially zero.


Yeah but.........ahhhhhhhhh.........I think that the reason Jesus isn't the owner of one of these 55 birth certificates is that he probably never existed.

If you stop and really think about it - 55 is a lot! :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo


Edited to correct my struggles with the english language.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ceeboo! I'm telling people off. Please stop me, okay?

:lol:
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ceeboo
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:58 am

Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Ceeboo »

Jersey Girl wrote:Ceeboo! I'm telling people off. Please stop me, okay?

:lol:


Jay-Gee!!!!!!!!!!! Stop it!!!!!!!

K - done! :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Jersey Girl wrote:Cam, Please do not take this as me wanting to disinvite you from this board, because I think you make a great contribution here when you're of a mind to. But please stfu with this tedious b***s***, okay?


Oh, the delicious irony.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jersey Girl wrote:Oh sweet mother! Okay, I finished what I was working on and now I'm all yours for like 5 seconds, okay? This is going to be an aside to you. Just for you. Only you. Feeling special yet?

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, you just say stuff.


This board is literally filled with people who are just saying stuff. I say stuff. You say stuff. We all say stuff. No really, it's in print and everything.

And when someone wants you to clarify you act mystified or offended that someone would do that.


I question why you seem to be challenging me as qualified to participate on this topic when what I actually did was pose questions, predicted how I think the thread would play out based on 15 years of experience, and recommended two posters as well qualified to engage the topic. Did you think I was recommending myself?

Look. You're the one making assertions. It's not unusual for people to want you to back up the assertion you're making. You're the initiating hostilities, so please check yo' self befo' you wreck yo' self.


Buddy, stop making personal remarks to and about me when you don't like what you read, then there wouldn't be any sub topic woven through this thread. Was asking questions initiating hostilities, antischock8? Have the predictions that I made about the thread become realized yet? If not, give it a little time and every swinging dick on this board that doesn't know jack about the topic will fill it right up with prophecy fulfilled and jettison to obscurity any valid or useful information such as that that Aristotle and EA have posted here.

If Kish should happen to show up on this thread, you've got yourselves a trifecta, and would you appreciate it or even be able to find it in the rubble of personal remarks and bantering on this thread? Can you tolerate for one second reading what you see as a negative remark by someone like me and just let it ride like I let ride all the negative remarks I read on this board regularly? Hell, I'd have to work day and night to match the post count of those who regularly make mocking, jeering, negative and low down disrespectful remarks about people and their beliefs on this board, Mormons and Mormonism of course, being a main theme.

Try a little delayed gratification once in a while, it won't kill you. I promise.

That said, I think you could draw some parallels between the evolution of Mormon theology along with its record keep with that of the early Christians. There was a whole lot of mysticism, factions, and various people making various claims. Hence the reason why the Gospels contradict themselves, and the need for a 'correlation committee' in Nicene.


Oh god. Okay, I think you could draw parallels between the development of Mormonism and Christianity as well, if it weren't for the fact that the arguments made against the historical Jesus often rely on conjecture without the application of common sense. Take a look at the questions that I posed to Aristotle and his answers. These are common sense questions with common sense answers that I don't see being asked in direct challenge to the assertions made to the OP itself. His answers lead out to other sub topics for study.

Do you want to learn or do you guys want someone to feed you s*** like you think the Mormon church did? Either way is good with me, just don't put it up here followed by a ton of head nodding, mockery and personal remarks about someone like me who wades in here to make inquiry when you don't like what the s*** I'm saying about what I see with my own eyes on this board daily and for years on end, including a total of 15 years online on boards like this one.

What's more likely? That Joseph Smith Jesus Christ as we know him today existed in that form in the narrative presented by early Christian theologians... Or it's all made up?


I don't know the answer to that, do you? I leave room for my ideas and position to change based on what I find when I feel like researching more, like following leads from people like Aristotle and Kish who know what they're talking about.

What proof other than what exists would you like in order to legitimize the claim that the Jesus you know certainly didn't exist?

V/R
Doc


I don't require rock solid proof.

What else do we need to discuss before you get me out of your gut, Cam? It's not me following you around calling you names, so get it out of your gut now, buddy. Because I'm not going anywhere. If you want to put a little target on my screen name, you go right ahead. I'll shoot back when and if I feel like it. Other than that, I don't really give a damn.


Hey, woman. You participated in a thread. It's not exactly following someone around to participate in the discussion they started. Nice attempt at Victim 101, but ain't no one buying it.

Look. I get it. You know exactly jack crap about the topic, and you keep deferring to others in the hopes that you don't have to account for any of the assertions you're making. The typical Jersey Girl drama queen act is in full throttle, so by all means keep harping on the victim thing.. Seems to work for most religionists. Whatever gets you to sleep at night, madame.

And again, what makes Mr. K and Mr. EA any more knowledgeable on the matter than anyone else? You haven't answered the question precisely because you can't formulate a coherent thought on it, but please feel free to prove me wrong...

In fact, after re-reading the thread... I'm not sure what the heck you're getting at other than... 'Nothing can be proven wrong, therefore Jesus wins!'? I don't know... I literally can't entertain your thought processes because they make me dizzy.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: 5 reasons to suspect Jesus never existed...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Cam,

Oh, I get it. You think I'm a hostile victim.

:lol:
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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