Current GA Being Accused of Child Abuse; the 12 Ignore It

[_moksha]

Don't know about you, but I am really digging that picture of Blixa in the helmet right next to LDSfaqs.

I've always kind of pictured Blixa as more like this...

Lying liberals might be interested that this is Roza Shanina, a Soviet army sniper from WWII. True patriot conservatives would be interested to know that the rifle was a Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 with a 3.5x PU scope.

[_AmyJo]

I think it is safe to say that more needs to be discovered in this case. The video leaves open a lot of questions and obviously is one-sided. Additionally, Richard Packham posted on the recovery from Mormonism site an interesting bit that seems to discount the abuse allegations. http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1770837

Packham added a disclaimer to that thread after he was invited by Mr. Karran to exchange private e-mails in order to show Mr. Packham he isn't a looney or liar, like Ms. Maria Santana has portrayed him as. Mr. Packham was merely passing along Ms. Santana's musings on Mr. Karran. Neither she nor Karran have ever met including over family court matters.

Personally I will be satisfied like some others here have asserted to see proof that he won full custody of his children, as he claims he did. If not, then his credibility will be hard to recoup.

I have no reason not to believe he is being forthright until it's been proven otherwise. I've seen too much ugly from those in authority inside the church to know how they turn a blind eye to these claims, including from my own childhood. When you've been the victim of rape the last thing you need or want is some know-it-all LDS social worker counselor telling a young girl that she was raped because she was promiscuous, and it was all her fault, when nothing could be further from the truth. I've seen and heard accounts of incest inside the church over the years as a Mormon, so it doesn't surprise me that the sh*t floats to the top. Some of these Mormon men grew up in a culture where ideas like incest similar to polygamy were acceptable - even if not societally so. They feel entitled and privileged so long as they aren't called out for their lack of propriety.

If Karran is telling the truth, what Mickelson tried to do was exploit his granddaughter by scapegoating her for his lack of self-control. To assuage his guilt he just shifted the blame onto a six year old little girl, only not once but two times, two different girls, 50 years apart. It does beg the question: if those are just the ones he spilled the beans on, were there others in the interim years?

It is just too easy for the church to scapegoat its victims. Whether children of sexual abuse, or whistleblowers.

[_Mary]

I agree AmyJo. The approach to childhood sexual abuse in the church seems so uneven. There's some superb practice and some yucky practice commensurate with an untrained lay leadership. Hot line advice appears to center around protecting the church from litigation.

I found Matt Long's discussion with Dehlin on this issue to be superb.

My take. Mandatory reporting is the only way to send a clear message to abusers and would be abusers that their behaviour will have consequences. This should occur where a child or adult confesses to having been abused whether 40 years ago or 4 days ago. This should occur where the abuser confesses. No exceptions. Those suspected by members should be reported to appropriate authorities.

In the UK now, there are specially trained police officers who will take all accusations seriously and where there is enough evidence will bring a case to court.

I can't believe the attitude of many in a patriarchal system who seem to think child abuse can be compared to bullying or speeding. It's a crime next to murder in my book. It steals innocence and destroys lives. I've seen it happen.

Edited to add, I have seen it happen with a bishop quietly released and given a slap on the hand. He died never having faced the reality of his crimes. It was all hushed. That goes directly against the church's own teachings on repentance. Ridiculous and tragic. Another friend finally came forward with historic abuse to be told that it was all in the past and she shouldn't be making trouble. The victim, victimised all over again. May God if he exists, forgive these people.

If this has driven Karren crazy, I can see why.

[_AmyJo]

There's a newly released blog by Mr. Karran on LifeAfterMormonism from last night, wherein he shares some more facts of his account primarily as a rebuttal to some charges made against him online on a different ex-Mormon forum (RfM,) where a poster has a thread running questioning his sanity, based on what a Family court attorney in the state of Utah deduced after quickly running a search of his divorce records. Mr. Karran's is calling Maria Santana's bluff, by questioning her motives for trying to smear his name and not accurately report his case to the public.

He was granted full-time custody of his children only after he caught his ex-wife's attorney on tape trying to suborn perjury by his ex-wife. He threatened her to go public with that which may have resulted in her losing her license, so she gave him what he wanted which was custody of his kids. Maria Santana does not make mention of any of these facts when she calls him out as insane, a liar, and calling his video a hoax. In his own words describing ex-wife's attorney,

"Kathleen McConkie pushed numerous times for contempt of court on trumped up charges, using various low-life ploys. On her last attempt (to be detailed in the releases), and I caught her in suborning perjury with Jean Mickelsen Berger, with a covert recording. To avoid losing her license, McConkie called a meeting to settle with me. I pushed for custody. It was technically called Primary Custody, but was no different than full custody in that children resided in my home full time, did not participate in parent-sharing time, nor did their mother press to enforce it."

Note that he also isn't saying his daughter was molested. What the charges are is that her grandfather accused her of being promiscuous at the age of six, just from sitting on his lap. That's where the pedophilia arises. Again, in Karran's words, "As all experts worldwide will attest: pedophilia cases are extremely hard to prove because no one is there to witness the actual event. Unless there is a confession, it is up to law enforcement, and then most often, judges and juries to “connect the dots” because it most always comes down to hearsay, or he-said/she-said.

This case, however, is far from anything typical (or difficult). Not only is hearsay removed from this case altogether, but the dots are as close as any pedophilia-dots could ever be. My daughter never accused Lynn A. Mickelsen of molesting her. He accused her and another family member of being promiscuous with him. As per connecting these simple dots: you, the public, get to assume the position of judge and jury in this case, because the attorneys, the judge, the psychiatrists, and law-enforcement, for some reason, were completely unable to connect those dots—in a case that didn’t even require any dot-connecting whatsoever—once again, because a 65-year old man accused two six-year old girls."

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profi ... e=activity

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profi ... e=activity

So, he went through two attorneys, and as a result was

held in contempt of court. The penalty was loss of my visitation rights, and for six months, I could only see my children for 90 minutes per week at ACAFS.

In addition, a judge just absolutely kicked his ass for not using his first lawyer for whatever reason.

He then claims to have covertly recorded a conversation between his ex-spouse and her lawyer whereupon her lawyer is trying to get her to lie about him to win the custody case. He then supposedly blackmails the ex-spouse and her lawyer into giving him Primary custody.

He then attempts to “F” the lawyer over, anyway.

I subsequently filed a complaint with the Utah State Board regarding Kathleen McConkie’s corrupt protocols, and breaking the law with suborning perjury, with no results.

All that aside let's see if there are any teeth to the molestation claim...

Nope. He blathers on about him parenting, self-representing, and how the video production is crap because he didn't have the money to produce anything other than crap.

The only telling thing I can see, but I have no way of knowing if it's true or not, is he, the father, had primary custody of his kids. That's a highly unusual thing to give someone in the Morridor.

- Doc

[_Rosebud]

AmyJo, it's probably worth putting Tobin on ignore if this board has that feature. His comments add no value.

I have nothing to add to this thread about this particular case because I haven't done anything more than watch the video and I don't 'have enough information to comment.

I have watched a lot of child abuse accusations within Mormonism during my lifetime, though. Here's what I've learned:

You can't trust people who present themselves as righteous, as good or even as victims. Accusations and the self-aggrandizements fly because one especially effective way to falsely claim innocence is to accuse someone else of being a pedophile -- to call attention to the problem so that focus is directed away from the self or is at least focused on smaller crimes. Whistle blowers are sometimes covering their own crimes.

False victims accuse innocent adults and real victims accuse guilty adults. Real victims of guilty adults accuse innocent adults to direct attention away from the true victimizations and the real crimes. Yes, they accuse the innocent people their perpetrators tell them to accuse. Anyone who speaks is vulnerable to attack and is generally labeled as someone who is susceptible to believing in "witch hunts."

These two six-year-old girls may have been hurt by a lot of different people. Somebody at least pre-sexualized them and it's disgusting that they have to listen to even one person say that what happened to them is their fault. My guess is that they endured a lot more than people would expect and that we're seeing the tip of a very dirty iceberg. They may still be pawns in a larger fight.

In other words, it's a mess and it is almost impossible to know whom to trust. Small children pay for adult silence and for the trust of their good parents. The adults who know what is going on stay silent to protect themselves and their families from attack. Parents who have cottoned on keep a good eye on their children. (If you have small children, please consider this seriously.

The 1991 task force statement is strange because it interprets the reports of abuse through a Mormon lens, but that's to be expected considering the paradigm of those who wrote it. That doesn't mean it's all false. It does mean that people are seriously mixed up and thinking about all of this within the logic of the Mormon religious framework just adds to the confusion and makes it all the stranger.

In other words, I think Mormonism is in for a ride. This is going to be ugly. The Mormon church is no less guilty than the Catholic church and from where I sit it looks like the sh1t is finally about to hit the fan.

[Guest]

AmyJo, it's probably worth putting Tobin on ignore if this board has that feature. His comments add no value.

I have nothing to add to this thread about this particular case because I haven't done anything more than watch the video and I don't 'have enough information to comment.

I have watched a lot of child abuse accusations within Mormonism during my lifetime, though. Here's what I've learned:

You can't trust people who present themselves as righteous, as good or even as victims. Accusations and the self-aggrandizements fly because one especially effective way to falsely claim innocence is to accuse someone else of being a pedophile -- to call attention to the problem so that focus is directed away from the self or is at least focused on smaller crimes. Whistle blowers are sometimes covering their own crimes.

False victims accuse innocent adults and real victims accuse guilty adults. Real victims of guilty adults accuse innocent adults to direct attention away from the true victimizations and the real crimes. Yes, they accuse the innocent people their perpetrators tell them to accuse. Anyone who speaks is vulnerable to attack and is generally labeled as someone who is susceptible to believing in "witch hunts."

These two six-year-old girls may have been hurt by a lot of different people. Somebody at least pre-sexualized them and it's disgusting that they have to listen to even one person say that what happened to them is their fault. My guess is that they endured a lot more than people would expect and that we're seeing the tip of a very dirty iceberg. They may still be pawns in a larger fight.

In other words, it's a mess and it is almost impossible to know whom to trust. Small children pay for adult silence and for the trust of their good parents. The adults who know what is going on stay silent to protect themselves and their families from attack. Parents who have cottoned on keep a good eye on their children. (If you have small children, please consider this seriously.

The 1991 task force statement is strange because it interprets the reports of abuse through a Mormon lens, but that's to be expected considering the paradigm of those who wrote it. That doesn't mean it's all false. It does mean that people are seriously mixed up and thinking about all of this within the logic of the Mormon religious framework just adds to the confusion and makes it all the stranger.

In other words, I think Mormonism is in for a ride. This is going to be ugly. The Mormon church is no less guilty than the Catholic church and from where I sit it looks like the s*** is finally about to hit the fan.

Thanks for the advice. I've reported Tobin's remark to admin, will let Dr. Shades deal with that.

As for Karran's charges/claims, I'm not here to judge or accuse, but I sure as heck stand behind him for coming out and breaking his silence. One of the things pedophiles hide behind in churches and in private life is secrecy. The secrecy/shaming of the victim/s - in this case a child no older than six made to feel ashamed for sitting on her grandfather's lap. Who on earth would sexualize a child that way? But a pervert.

Mr. Karran doesn't sound like someone who is crazy, but a father who is standing up to those who sought to silence him and his daughter.

His lawyering may be bad, but I can understand being in a position of feeling like he had no choice but to represent himself when he had two attorneys in a row who were ineffective and incompetent. I've had attorneys like that myself. You really want to strangle them, but instead they bleed you first and then hang you out to dry. It's a good old boys club with attorneys. I imagine Utah lawyers are no exception, and Mormon attorneys have more to protect than their image.

If this had happened to one of my children I'd be getting it out to the public. Karran made his video several years ago, and has published it several times. Why it has taken off now is anyone's guess. Why sudden interest that wasn't there before? Maybe he reached a different and hungrier audience, like the ex-Mormon forum discussions sites like this one and LifeAfterMormonism where I first read of his account, and since then it's been shared elsewhere including RfM, where Mr. Packham shared what his source had divulged to him - which source is ahem, a Salt Lake City lawyer specializing in family law. If you google her name, there is hardly any cases, in fact zero cases cited for her having worked on and she's supposedly been a SLC attorney for these past 20 years.

She also has a string of civil judgments against her, and a personal bankruptcy. So I question her veracity and integrity over Karran's.

[_Rosebud]

Thanks for the advice. I've reported Tobin's remark to admin, will let Dr. Shades deal with that.

As for Karran's charges/claims, I'm not here to judge or accuse, but I sure as heck stand behind him for coming out and breaking his silence. One of the things pedophiles hide behind in churches and in private life is secrecy. The secrecy/shaming of the victim/s - in this case a child no older than six made to feel ashamed for sitting on her grandfather's lap. Who on earth would sexualize a child that way? But a pervert.

Mr. Karran doesn't sound like someone who is crazy, but a father who is standing up to those who sought to silence him and his daughter.

His lawyering may be bad, but I can understand being in a position of feeling like he had no choice but to represent himself when he had two attorneys in a row who were ineffective and incompetent. I've had attorneys like that myself. You really want to strangle them, but instead they bleed you first and then hang you out to dry. It's a good old boys club with attorneys. I imagine Utah lawyers are no exception, and the Mormons hang together like Tobin hangs here.

If this had happened to one of my children I'd be getting it out to the public. Karran made his video several years ago, and has published it several times. Why it has taken off now is anyone's guess. Why sudden interest that wasn't there before? Maybe he reached a different and hungrier audience, like the ex-Mormon forum discussions sites like this one and LifeAfterMormonism where I first read of his account, and since then it's been shared elsewhere including RfM, where Mr. Packham shared what his source had divulged to him - which source is ahem, a Salt Lake City lawyer specializing in family law. If you google her name, there is hardly any cases, in fact zero cases cited for her having worked on and she's supposedly been a Salt Lake City attorney for these past 20 years.

She also has a string of personal judgments against her, and a personal bankruptcy. So I question her veracity and integrity moreover Karran's.

The hard part about this problem is that innocent people will be accused and that guilty people will attack. Real victims will accuse real perpetrators and and real victims will accuse innocent perpetrators.

Each of us will interpret the information we have based on our own life experiences, but very few innocent people will have enough information to interpret what is really going on or get an accurate read on any one case. The guilty people, those who have the information, only have incentive to further stir up confusion to distract attention away from themselves and their crimes. This allows them to keep committing the crimes without getting caught.

And then, after all of that and the "craziness" that comes with the above, people will cast doubt on the victims' reports because the reports themselves seem "crazy" and the victims will be further disbelieved and therefore even more abandoned with their problem.

And perpetrators, knowing that the public won't believe reports of "crazy" kinds of abuse and will fall for accusations that the victims are "crazy," will purposely abuse victims in "crazy" and fairly unbelievable ways. In fact, the more traumatic and "crazy" the abuse of a small child, the more likely the child is to forget the abuse and therefore not report. Perpetrators are incentivized to be cruel and strange.

To make things worse, real victims grow up to be real perpetrators.

It's as ugly as ugly gets. And when the sh1t hits the fan, it will be impossible for people without real information to know who is innocent and who is guilty. The perpetrators --- the ones who have real information -- are the people who really know and they will stir up trouble.

With all of this, I am also saying that I believe the girls are victims and I believe the problem is real.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

She also has a string of civil judgments against her, and a personal bankruptcy.

Source?

- Doc

[_Tobin]

She also has a string of civil judgments against her, and a personal bankruptcy.

Source?

There are none Doc. She's just a parrot for unsubstantiated, slanderous nonsense pouring from that sick fountain known as Mr. Karren.