The "Witnesses" Movie as Outright Mopologetics

[_Dr Exiled]

I like the idea of exploring the Martin Harris character. There is so much interesting material with his greediness, lusting, and believing almost anything. Perhaps this movie could be about how Joe leads Martin through adventure after adventure while scheming to take away his farm only to be thwarted by the wicked witch Lucy, who was on to Joe all along.

I also like the idea of witnesses part two: what Emma saw in a kirtland barn. She surely witnessed a lot and it would make a good movie.

[_Gadianton]

Joseph, my son, we have a work for you to do after we finish prancing in the woods .....

Suddenly, the magic mushroom angle has more weight.

Best ever. LOL!

(I have a tremendous scholarly interest in the film. A million dollars is (I wager) spent to increase the viability of a fictional Book of Mormon. The encounter with Moroni and the plates will not be shown in a way that makes it incompatible with a subjective experience.)

[_Symmachus]

Laying out the defense for Mr. Joseph Smith against charges of capital homicide, defense attorney Daniel Peterson called the defendant to the stand to testify. The defendant claimed, under oath, that he saw an angel pump six revolver rounds into Mr. Chauncey Gardner while Mr. Gardner lay on the ground pleading for his life. He also reported hearing the angel screaming “Die, Chauncey! Die!” When asked under cross examination why none of the witnesses to the crime saw the angel, Smith said that they “clearly lacked faith to see the angel with their spiritual eyes.”

Reaching into his breast pocket and removing some wrinkled manuscripts with a dramatic flourish, Mr. Peterson then solemnly intoned, “Your Honor, Mr. Smith has brought these signed statements from his family and friends averring that they, too, saw the murderous angel, who appeared to them later and confessed to the crime. We ask that these statements be entered into the record.”

When the jury returned a verdict of “guilty,” jurors explained to those who questioned them, first of all, that any fool can claim he has seen an angel, that a scoundrel is much more likely to invoke an act of God fraudulently, and that the unverifiable statements of the defendant’s family and friends have all the credibility of a truant child’s forged excuse note.

Asked for his reaction to the verdict, defense attorney Daniel Peterson, clearly stunned by the outcome, lamented the secularization of America and repeatedly touted the honor and rectitude of the signatories to the statements Smith produced, leaving onlookers incredulous.

Deliciously brilliant!

Peterson is in top apologetic form, and it is rewarding us all with handsome dividends like this. Keep it coming, Professor Peterson (and/or whoever is the ultimate source you copy-and-paste from, although I suspect the latest fare is original work, for a change).

[_Lemmie]

Joseph, my son, we have a work for you to do after we finish prancing in the woods .....

Suddenly, the magic mushroom angle has more weight.

Best ever. LOL!

(I have a tremendous scholarly interest in the film. A million dollars is (I wager) spent to increase the viability of a fictional Book of Mormon. The encounter with Moroni and the plates will not be shown in a way that makes it incompatible with a subjective experience.)

I agree it’s going to make the Book of Mormon come across as fictional, but it’s a delicate balancing act between showing a mindful subjective religious experience, and demonstrating how Joseph Smith et al perpetrated a fraud.

They have already shown pictures of gold leaflet type plates held together with D-rings, squiggly lettering clearly incompatible with any other language, lettering that is so obviously refutable given the Book of Abraham debacle, with a spectacle thingy on a stick (Urim and Thummim?), and now Joseph Smith running through the woods.

As you point out, the angelic mind-experience will certainly come across as subjective, which will then make all of their objective assertions interpretable only as fraud. How else to explain how a subjective experience becomes real?

The LDS church may be leaning toward a fictional Book of Mormon, but the leadership isn’t going to appreciate Peterson demonstrating the scam that surrounded the fiction.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Just a reminder there have been some fun attempts to run around with 50 lbs avoiding attackers:

https://youtu.be/08wRRff8x0k?t=124

Whatever the case may be it'd be really odd including a story from Joseph Smith's mother (or that other guy, I forget his name right now) considering DCP's analogy of witnesses and a murder trial. I have no idea what kind of related example I could give vis a vis his murder trial and Mrs. Smith's testimony, but it seems absurd to include this bit about Joseph Smith haulin' ass while haulin' tumbaga in his Book of Mormon movie. Also, if he's going to depict Joseph Smith running around stiff arming attackers is he going to ensure the actor runs with a limp?

Are the Brethren aware and supportive of this thing? Surely they can see there are going to be many, many issues with making a faith-promoting movie that has so many historical issues? I see this movie causing way more questions than answers. Can you imagine some kids watching this movie and they start googling Book of Mormon questions? They're out, man. Just like that. Gone.

- Doc

[_Physics Guy]

That's an interesting point. The movie might be faith-supporting to people who are already committed and are looking for reassurance but it might well wake sleeping dogs of doubt in many other people. Whether there's a net gain for the Church is a tricky question of demographics.

Today everybody who isn't really old has seen a lot of movies that vividly show impossible fantasies. Seeing isn't necessarily believing. I don't think there are too many people walking around convinced that you could really survive an atomic bomb by hiding in an old fridge just because they saw Indiana Jones do it.

[_Kishkumen]

I like the idea of exploring the Martin Harris character. There is so much interesting material with his greediness, lusting, and believing almost anything. Perhaps this movie could be about how Joe leads Martin through adventure after adventure while scheming to take away his farm only to be thwarted by the wicked witch Lucy, who was on to Joe all along.

I also like the idea of witnesses part two: what Emma saw in a kirtland barn. She surely witnessed a lot and it would make a good movie.

Oh my, Exiled. Yes, *many things* were witnessed in the history of early Mormonism. You are right that many would rather that these other events not be dramatized for the silver screen.

Thanks, by the way, for linking me to the elaphophany!

[_Kishkumen]

Deliciously brilliant!

Peterson is in top apologetic form, and it is rewarding us all with handsome dividends like this. Keep it coming, Professor Peterson (and/or whoever is the ultimate source you copy-and-paste from, although I suspect the latest fare is original work, for a change).

Why thank you, dear consul! I am truly flattered.

That entry at SeN was a gift from Heaven, as it were. I hope we continue to see similar gems. It almost makes me wistful for days of FARMS past.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Man, the comments section from SeN are gold, erm, I mean tumbaga:

irnbruthunder • 3 days ago

Not quite sure what the big deal is here. If we take the heaviest weight estimate which seems to be 60 pounds (27 kilograms) a reasonably healthy person could carry this for miles and even over fallen trees. If they were at the lighter end of estimates at 30 pounds then even easier. What is more interesting in my opinion is the wide variance in the weight estimates with the highest estimates being twice that of the lowest.

I don't know in what world these people exist, but 60 lbs is a fuckload of weight to carry around, especially so if you're breaking bush and fighting off attackers. "... 30 pounds then even easier." I mean if we're magically reducing the weight of the plates why not just estimate them at a couple of pounds? Whatever the case may be, Mr. Peterson would be well served to show his actor just dropping the plates, disabling each attacker a la Jason Statham in Hobbs and Shaw, and then resuming his quest to get home in time for supper.

- Doc

[_I have a question]

We've heard where a football coach tried this experiment to prove that it could be done, however he only used a 20 lb weight and was only marginally successful for a limited distance. There's a big difference between a 20 lb. weight and a 50 lb. weight. We can guarantee that if you got any normal, healthy, even stronger than average young man as Joseph reportedly was (and even one with healthy legs where there was no limp at all) and had him carry a 50 lb. dumbbell, even just one mile, that virtually any three men pursuing him could catch him almost immediately.

Recently, several students tried this experiment with a 50 lb. plate. It was very easy to catch the person running with the weight. They put their experiment on youtube here.

http://www.mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08wRRff8 ... annel_page

I’m not sure why the plates have importance anymore, not since the Church clarified that The Book of Mormon came out of a rock. What was the point of supposedly keeping them safe when they weren’t required in the first place? I wonder just how “honest” Witnesses is going to be...