Radio Free Mormon: Magic and the Book of Mormon (We Need Dan Vogel's Help!)

[_honorentheos]

In principle, the entire process of translation is a misdirection of which the hat trick is merely a part if one assumes it was a con.

Assuming the purpose was not that of translating an ancient, divinely inspired text but a con, what was the purpose of the con? Obviously to make money. So why the trick? Because a fictional story about Israelites coming to the Americas has a limited market and might not get published while one sold as being a translation of a real historic record almost by definition commands the same market share plus more.

So why put on the trick? Because he needs backing... us(ing) trick after trick to reel in the needed mark who had the money needed for publication - Martin Harris, who was being lost as a gullible dupe after Smiths initial efforts fizzled out into quasi-failure. This includes Joseph, Oliver and David faking the visit of Moroni and the plates to get Harris to sign on after much urging and manipulation from Smith when he failed to be able to participate in the grand vision with them.

That was my point, too, stem. The entire act of translation is the trick, not the goal of the trick. Getting too caught up in the translation process itself is falling prey to the magician's game. It's following the cups to try and keep track of which one has the ball, not realizing the ball isn't in any cup because the conman palmed it. The game works only as long as people play by the rules set up by the magician. And I took that as the real point behind the podcasts. I just think getting hung up on the hat is not quite going far enough to really see the trick for what it was.

[_honorentheos]

I think it's pretty straight forward. If one looks at the process as Smith essentially trying to win Harris over, with different attempts over time ultimately only becoming successful once he added Oliver and David Whitmer, it can be seen as a plan coming together, evolving to adjust to new circumstances, suffering setbacks, and ultimately succeeding when the chips were all down.

Even South Park saw through the BS to the core relationship being Smith-Harris.

DUM, DUM, DUM

[_Simon Southerton]

With that said, it would indeed be pretty suspicious if the hat with the seer stone should turn out to have been white. A white hat can work a bit like a one-way mirror or mirror sunglasses. From outside the material seems to be obviously opaque because you can't see into it at all, if the room is bright; but that's just because it reflects much more light from the bright outside than it allows through from the dark inside. If you sit with a light in a dark room and cover the light with a white hat, though, you see how brightly the light will glow through the hat. That much light will also come into the hat from outside.

The hat was almost certainly white. This is an LDS wiki source with three references. Many are to Dan Vogel so he will be able to confirm it.

Smith's usual procedure was to place the stone in a white stovepipe hat, put his face over the hat to block the light, and "see" the necessary information in the stone's reflections.[8][9][10]

The hat would still have been dim enough inside though, I guess, that it would have been easier to read in there once one's eyes had adapted to the dimness. That adaptation process would take many minutes—it's not just pupil dilation. Every time Smith raised his face from the hat and looked around in full daylight, the adaptation would be lost and would have to begin again. if Smith were to pop his head out of the hat frequently in order to recite, the whole process would be very slow. If on the other hand he kept his head in the hat and recited from inside there, or if he made a point of shutting his eyes tightly whenever he looked up from the hat, then he could probably have read a note hidden inside the hat easily enough that he would quickly have finished reading it. Then he would have had to insert or uncover a new note to read next.

As I mentioned earlier, it was a taller stovepipe hat. This would have had a greater surface area, allowing more transmission of light and air. Mormon apologist Clay L. Chandler argued that it was likely the hat may have been constructed from porous material to allow Smith to breath while his head was in the hat. (Scrying for the Lord: Magic, Mysticism, and the Origins of the Book of Mormon. Clay L. Chandler Dialogue 36/4 (2002): 43-78.

The hat appears to have been made by Edward Partridge. From reddit:

the hat that Joseph Smith used with the seer stone to translate The Book of Mormon was actually made by Edward Partridge several years before the church was organized and long before the two of them ever met. Edward Partridge was the first Bishop of the church.

Shortly after Edward Partridge met Joseph, or after Edward Partridge moved his family to kirtland, he saw Joseph either wearing the hat or noticed it in his home. He asked Joseph where he got it. Upon closer examination Edward discovered that it was a special hat that he had made several years earlier. There's a story behind that hat. Something to the effect that Edward Partridge had a dream to make this hat out of a different type of felt. It was a style and design that he was not currently selling in his hat shop in Ohio.

The frame of a top hat is very light. A sheet of cheesecloth coated in shellac (like resin) is allowed to harden over a wooded hat-shaped block. The rest is internal and external fabric (and pockets for notes). Evidently Lincoln kept his notes in his stovepipe hat so there was room for a party up there.

[_Simon Southerton]

I think a question that might be raised here is why? Why would Joseph try and fool his wife and the scribes into thinking he was translating, when as ready believers, he could have just produced the record without them? He could have taken the plates, demanded to sit by himself in a locked room or something, and write up the Book of Mormon himself. THe product could have been the same, and he could have gotten the believers to believe just the same, theoretically. He even could have done the same with the witnesses. Why the need to go through the trouble of making it appear he was looking at a stone rather than looking at notes on a page in his hat? It seems the notes themselves were already the story.

From the age of 14, when he obtained his first seer stone, he had used a stone in a hat to find buried treasure. Right up to, and including the night Joseph obtained the plates, he frequently was out and about on treasure digs using his seer stone. To me it makes perfect sense for him to stick with his modus operandus.

[_Simon Southerton]

That was my point, too, stem. The entire act of translation is the trick, not the goal of the trick. Getting too caught up in the translation process itself is falling prey to the magician's game. It's following the cups to try and keep track of which one has the ball, not realizing the ball isn't in any cup because the conman palmed it. The game works only as long as people play by the rules set up by the magician. And I took that as the real point behind the podcasts. I just think getting hung up on the hat is not quite going far enough to really see the trick for what it was.

I agree RFM has not uncovered the full extent of the trick and he isn't claiming that. But his podcast represents a significant conceptual advance. All eyes (critics and apologists) were on the stone, that never worked anyway. Its an important piece of the puzzle which suggests he was engaged in a greater level of deception. It also reveals how very clever Smith was. More importantly, I think, future researchers will look at the whole translation process with fresh eyes.

I tend to favor the possibility that he acted alone in the deception, purely because its cleaner. The more people involved in a scheme, the greater the odds one of them will rat on you later when things head south. All surviving witnesses had left the church by 1843. To my knowledge not one of them hinted that anything was dodgy about the translation process. The first people I would consider in any scheme would be Hyrum, and his parents. His father was actively involved in his dodgy treasure hunting and it supplemented the family's income. The whole family stood to benefit.

[_honorentheos]

I suppose everyone has their preferred ideas, whether critic or believers. For me it comes down to the results - the book is clearly a product of the 19th century. After that it's choosing to take part in the magician's game. Your work in revealing the issues with DNA is an example of what successfully draws back the curtain and exposes the fraud for what it is. Word print and the likes? Hobbies.

Speaking of, why I don't think Smith acted alone is there is a marked difference in production pre-Cowdrey and post-Cowdery. Smith, working with Harris, Emma, and even her brother had a shot at going it alone. But what they produced in 6 months in the book of Lehi is lost, and essentially of unknown quality. What we have, absent a bit of Mosiah, all came about once Oliver was involved. I don't think the core story could have been changed (i.e. Oliver bringing a manuscript) that they adapted to the Lehi story. Instead, whatever his role it meant the Book was completed, he and David Whitmer were almost essential to convincing Harris to front the publication through playing along with the witness event...Oliver sat side-by-side in preparing what became sections of the D&C including the early proclamation Smith would have no other gift but that of translation...until he grabbed more...

It all has the look of power dynamic between Oliver and Joseph where they knew what was really up along with the Whitmers. The main players had a schism afterward,vwith Oliver and the Whitmers going to Missouri while Smith went with his new shiny toy in Rigdon to Ohio where he bankrupted everyone and got ran out of town which Oliver, David and John Whitmer resented...and within a short time they were out with all the power now in Smith's hands and a new quorum of the twelve in place. The Whitmers kept trying their hand at starting and leading their own movement. Cowdery was more complicated, it's hinted he did in fact deny his testimony as they say. But it seems his whole life was spent running away from his Mormon past where it was an albatross around his neck when found out. I don't know. It interesting, but it's sport.

[_Physics Guy]

Why would Joseph try and fool his wife and the scribes into thinking he was translating, when as ready believers, he could have just produced the record without them? He could have taken the plates, demanded to sit by himself in a locked room or something, and write up the Book of Mormon himself. THe product could have been the same, and he could have gotten the believers to believe just the same, theoretically. He even could have done the same with the witnesses. Why the need to go through the trouble of making it appear he was looking at a stone rather than looking at notes on a page in his hat? It seems the notes themselves were already the story.

Did he need help writing the story since he couldn't compose a coherent letter himself? Since he needed that help did he trick his scribes into thinking he was dictating a story from God, rather than from his own notes or his own imagination?

In planning this ruse, I don't know what he thought he was gaining. You would think he could have conjured up the book, claiming the plates and magic tools inspired him, and credulous believers would have believed just the same. I'm just not sure it works very well.

Yes, why even bother with the charade of reciting the text as if being translated live under inspiration, when Smith could just as well have simply locked himself in a room, emerged with a stack of pages, and claimed to have produced them by poring over the plates with divine aid?

It's the same question people have asked about the plates themselves, of course. Why bother with the charade of claiming to have physical artifacts, let alone of actually producing some kind of prop, when Smith could just as well have simply written out his story and claimed that it had come to him in a divinely inspired dream?

The theory that Smith was a successful con man doesn't mean that he was a con-man genius who did everything according to a perfect plan. That's a straw man. The plausible theory is that he acted on hunch and instinct and whimsy and adapted his scheme as it grew.

I for one suspect that Mormonism really did all start with Smith getting some plates, in the sense that he found a bunch of lead shingles or something and got the idea to jigger them up into a bogus relic. The idea that the relic would specifically be a set of plates with ancient writing on them was probably there pretty much from the start, because plates by themselves are just plates, but Smith probably didn't end up really trying to cover all the plates with engraved symbols. If he started doing that he probably ran out of steam and found that it was too hard to make convincing ancient engraving or even just to keep on coming up with enough convincing ancient glyphs to cover his plates.

Smith probably found, in fact, that he couldn't produce a fake relic that would stand scrutiny well enough to stand on its own. So he couldn't just offer his stack of plates as something that he found in a field, Gee what could it be, and expect to get a lot of cash for the valuable artifact. It needed help. Well, if it was supposed to be plates with ancient writings, maybe he could play up the content of the ancient writings somehow. Marketing-wise the ideal content would be religious, and inventing a bunch of religious stories would be straightforward. So what I then see is a natural evolutionary process in which some kind of translation charade ends up being a crucial component in Smith's scam.

He had plates, but they weren't good enough fakes to be sold. He could make up a story about ancient Nephites and what-not, but the story by itself wasn't impressive enough to sell just as a revelation received in a dream, let alone as a novel. If the story could be written on the plates, it might sell as a recovered ancient text, and that would be great. I don't think Smith had to be a highly educated genius to tell, though, that unfortunately he couldn't quite get the two ends of his scam to meet each other. He was never going to be able to generate fake ancient engravings that would actually record his made-up story in some ancient language. The job of linking his plates to his story was a big one. Doing it would require a whole third component to his scam along with the plates and the Nephite story.

The third component was the translation schtick. It didn't much matter exactly what it was or how it worked, but it had to be something that served to connect the plates and the story, and it had to have enough substance of its own that it could compensate for the weaknesses of the other two elements. That is, it had to be something that drew attention and interest in its own right. It needed to have its own razzle-dazzle.

Smith clearly messed around with a number of things trying to put together a good enough act. He had magic spectacles, he had angelic visitation, he had visions of God(s); he had scribes, he had two different groups of witnesses; he had a seer stone; he had a hat trick. They were all about connecting his plates to his story. And in the end it paid off.

The shenanigans with the translation process itself were a vital component, I think. I don't think they were a pointless charade at all. Smith needed a humdinger of an act to connect his hokey story to his lousy plates, and he gradually put one together. And I think in the end he got more than just an adequate link between the two other parts of his scam. I think he got critical mass, he got synergy.

With plates, translation, and story he had the full three-card Monte. Look at the plates—what were they made of, who saw them? Now look at the text—is it authentic, are there Hebraisms? But no, now look at the translation process—were there notes, how did he do it? Well, and look back at the plates—didn't Emma feel them through cloth?

Round and round. Three is a lot more than two when you're trying to bamboozle folks. Three's a charm.

[_Stem]

Why would Joseph try and fool his wife and the scribes into thinking he was translating, when as ready believers, he could have just produced the record without them? He could have taken the plates, demanded to sit by himself in a locked room or something, and write up the Book of Mormon himself. THe product could have been the same, and he could have gotten the believers to believe just the same, theoretically. He even could have done the same with the witnesses. Why the need to go through the trouble of making it appear he was looking at a stone rather than looking at notes on a page in his hat? It seems the notes themselves were already the story.

Did he need help writing the story since he couldn't compose a coherent letter himself? Since he needed that help did he trick his scribes into thinking he was dictating a story from God, rather than from his own notes or his own imagination?

In planning this ruse, I don't know what he thought he was gaining. You would think he could have conjured up the book, claiming the plates and magic tools inspired him, and credulous believers would have believed just the same. I'm just not sure it works very well.

Yes, why even bother with the charade of reciting the text as if being translated live under inspiration, when Smith could just as well have simply locked himself in a room, emerged with a stack of pages, and claimed to have produced them by poring over the plates with divine aid?

It's the same question people have asked about the plates themselves, of course. Why bother with the charade of claiming to have physical artifacts, let alone of actually producing some kind of prop, when Smith could just as well have simply written out his story and claimed that it had come to him in a divinely inspired dream?

The theory that Smith was a successful con man doesn't mean that he was a con-man genius who did everything according to a perfect plan. That's a straw man. The plausible theory is that he acted on hunch and instinct and whimsy and adapted his scheme as it grew.

I for one suspect that Mormonism really did all start with Smith getting some plates, in the sense that he found a bunch of lead shingles or something and got the idea to jigger them up into a bogus relic. The idea that the relic would specifically be a set of plates with ancient writing on them was probably there pretty much from the start, because plates by themselves are just plates, but Smith probably didn't end up really trying to cover all the plates with engraved symbols. If he started doing that he probably ran out of steam and found that it was too hard to make convincing ancient engraving or even just to keep on coming up with enough convincing ancient glyphs to cover his plates.

Smith probably found, in fact, that he couldn't produce a fake relic that would stand scrutiny well enough to stand on its own. So he couldn't just offer his stack of plates as something that he found in a field, Gee what could it be, and expect to get a lot of cash for the valuable artifact. It needed help. Well, if it was supposed to be plates with ancient writings, maybe he could play up the content of the ancient writings somehow. Marketing-wise the ideal content would be religious, and inventing a bunch of religious stories would be straightforward. So what I then see is a natural evolutionary process in which some kind of translation charade ends up being a crucial component in Smith's scam.

He had plates, but they weren't good enough fakes to be sold. He could make up a story about ancient Nephites and what-not, but the story by itself wasn't impressive enough to sell just as a revelation received in a dream, let alone as a novel. If the story could be written on the plates, it might sell as a recovered ancient text, and that would be great. I don't think Smith had to be a highly educated genius to tell, though, that unfortunately he couldn't quite get the two ends of his scam to meet each other. He was never going to be able to generate fake ancient engravings that would actually record his made-up story in some ancient language. The job of linking his plates to his story was a big one. Doing it would require a whole third component to his scam along with the plates and the Nephite story.

The third component was the translation schtick. It didn't much matter exactly what it was or how it worked, but it had to be something that served to connect the plates and the story, and it had to have enough substance of its own that it could compensate for the weaknesses of the other two elements. That is, it had to be something that drew attention and interest in its own right. It needed to have its own razzle-dazzle.

Smith clearly messed around with a number of things trying to put together a good enough act. He had magic spectacles, he had angelic visitation, he had visions of God(s); he had scribes, he had two different groups of witnesses; he had a seer stone; he had a hat trick. They were all about connecting his plates to his story. And in the end it paid off.

The shenanigans with the translation process itself were a vital component, I think. I don't think they were a pointless charade at all. Smith needed a humdinger of an act to connect his hokey story to his lousy plates, and he gradually put one together. And I think in the end he got more than just an adequate link between the two other parts of his scam. I think he got critical mass, he got synergy.

With plates, translation, and story he had the full three-card Monte. Look at the plates—what were they made of, who saw them? Now look at the text—is it authentic, are there Hebraisms? But no, now look at the translation process—were there notes, how did he do it? Well, and look back at the plates—didn't Emma feel them through cloth?

Round and round. Three is a lot more than two when you're trying to bamboozle folks. Three's a charm.

Sure, I think in hindsight it works to some extent. I just don't understand the mindset he must have been in in order to think he needed something more than his recorded story, as if it came from plates. "I need to trick certain people to think I'm seeing words in a hat, so I can complete the sham!" Doesn't mean a whole lot to me. He could have just produced the text and voila, tricked everyone just the same without risking someone catching his tells or his elaborate effort to keep hidden from people right before their eyes. It's as if a major part of the whole enterprise was to pull off a big trick for the sake of pulling off the big trick.

[_Stem]

I think a question that might be raised here is why? Why would Joseph try and fool his wife and the scribes into thinking he was translating, when as ready believers, he could have just produced the record without them? He could have taken the plates, demanded to sit by himself in a locked room or something, and write up the Book of Mormon himself. THe product could have been the same, and he could have gotten the believers to believe just the same, theoretically. He even could have done the same with the witnesses. Why the need to go through the trouble of making it appear he was looking at a stone rather than looking at notes on a page in his hat? It seems the notes themselves were already the story.

From the age of 14, when he obtained his first seer stone, he had used a stone in a hat to find buried treasure. Right up to, and including the night Joseph obtained the plates, he frequently was out and about on treasure digs using his seer stone. To me it makes perfect sense for him to stick with his modus operandus.

Sure. Fair point.

[_Stem]

I suppose everyone has their preferred ideas, whether critic or believers. For me it comes down to the results - the book is clearly a product of the 19th century. After that it's choosing to take part in the magician's game. Your work in revealing the issues with DNA is an example of what successfully draws back the curtain and exposes the fraud for what it is. Word print and the likes? Hobbies.

Speaking of, why I don't think Smith acted alone is there is a marked difference in production pre-Cowdrey and post-Cowdery. Smith, working with Harris, Emma, and even her brother had a shot at going it alone. But what they produced in 6 months in the book of Lehi is lost, and essentially of unknown quality. What we have, absent a bit of Mosiah, all came about once Oliver was involved. I don't think the core story could have been changed (i.e. Oliver bringing a manuscript) that they adapted to the Lehi story. Instead, whatever his role it meant the Book was completed, he and David Whitmer were almost essential to convincing Harris to front the publication through playing along with the witness event...Oliver sat side-by-side in preparing what became sections of the D&C including the early proclamation Smith would have no other gift but that of translation...until he grabbed more...

It all has the look of power dynamic between Oliver and Joseph where they knew what was really up along with the Whitmers. The main players had a schism afterward,vwith Oliver and the Whitmers going to Missouri while Smith went with his new shiny toy in Rigdon to Ohio where he bankrupted everyone and got ran out of town which Oliver, David and John Whitmer resented...and within a short time they were out with all the power now in Smith's hands and a new quorum of the twelve in place. The Whitmers kept trying their hand at starting and leading their own movement. Cowdery was more complicated, it's hinted he did in fact deny his testimony as they say. But it seems his whole life was spent running away from his Mormon past where it was an albatross around his neck when found out. I don't know. It interesting, but it's sport.

I agree that it feels pretty difficult to say Smith acted alone. I think that's a good point. If he had others in on it, then why the need for a trick? In my mind, the people devoted early to the project, had to be convinced somehow. If Smith convinced them that he had spiritual prowess beyond others, then the tricking had to grow more and more elaborate, and it simply doesn't feel possible he wouldn't have been found out by someone. But if Smith convinced them he had scriptural story and needed help creating it, and they could all start a new religion with devoted followers and the like, then it feels possible.

I also still wonder if he truly felt the story in his head was scripture. It wasn't trick per se, but just him thinking he really was inspired by God and the words that came out of him, inspired-feeling as they were, were, as he saw it, God dictating scripture through him. There just happened to be people who felt impressed he was inspired. The whole magic trick stuff just feels way too sophisticated and elaborate. The level of scheming, plotting and then maintaining and covering it up in front of dozens of different people just feels impossible.