And the historical fact that Joseph didn't actually translate from them makes the entire plates story just a mcguffin. A MacGuffin is a plot device used in films or books that sets the characters into motion and drives the story. In this case, the plates were so important that Nephi murdered a man for them. That they had to be painstakingly carved and hiked up from Central America to upstate New York. All so that Joseph could not use them to create the Book of Mormon.
It strains credulity.
The plates were evidence to Joseph that the Book of Mormon had its source in an ancient setting. What if he had simply been told by an angel to go get his peep stone, get a hat, and create/receive a record of a chosen/fallen people?
The record/plates needed to be in/at play as the ‘artifact’ or catalyst which acted as the ‘hands on’ source. How they interfaced with the translation process is secondary.
The fact that there were plates, along with the angel, gave an absolute confirmation to Joseph that what he was called to do and the sacrifices he would experience were centered in and originated with God.
I think that is why we see no evidence of Joseph ever backtracking on his story and/or the sincerity in which he carried out his work and communicated with others. Especially Emma.
He had seen the plates. He had seen the angel. He knew it. And more importantly he knew that God knew it.
The plates were KEY.
They acted as the physical and tangible evidence to Joseph that he was called to the work of the Lord. Along with the First Vision the plates gave knowledge, to Joseph, that he was called to the work.
And he never denied that testimony.
Regards,
MG
I can’t imagine all of those rationalizations appealing to anyone except someone trying to salvage a struggling testimony.
I would appreciate it if Mormons taught all of this in the first lessons to investigators. I have a feeling they still teach that Joseph translated the plates.
The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.
How do you deal with that?
Regards,
MG
Scroll up. Or more accurately, backtrack to page three of this thread, where I wrote:
Think in terms of myths, legends, and folklore, and even real life. Great figures are often associated with iconic objects. Moses and the tablets. Aaron's rod. Arthur and Excalibur. Wizards and their wands. Christians often adorn their houses and bodies with crosses and crucifixes. European royalty wear crowns and carry scepters. In the final break from the Lamanites, Nephi takes the plates of brass, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban (2 Ne. 5:12-14). We could multiply examples practically forever.
So, we have gold plates--gold being a precious metal and has long served a symbol of something's value. The plates existence was revealed to Joseph by an angel. He had an initial problem obtaining the plates because he had pecuniary motive. He had further problems obtaining them because he wasn't accompanied by the right person. Once he did get the plates, other people tried to steal them, in turn requiring sometimes extraordinary measures and even supernatural intervention to keep them safe. The loss of the 116 manuscript pages led to the plates being taken away temporarily and the permanent loss of the Interpreters. Joseph then had to obtain divine forgiveness to get the plates back. Once the translation is done and the plates are shown to God's chosen witnesses, they were taken back and now they will remain forever safe. This is the stuff legends and myths are made of!
Compare to: "One day I put a stone in a hat and this is what I saw. End of story."
The plates--and especially the stories surrounding them--gives the Book of Mormon an intensified importance it might not otherwise have.
I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.
Earlier I said:
The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.
How do you deal with that...
Smith was no different than any other con artist or magician putting on show. From a magician's blog:
They use props to help them connect with the audience and make the show more engaging. The magician's goal is to create an entirely different world from reality. They want to make it as believable as possible so that the audience can suspend disbelief and be completely immersed in this alternate world.
Smith was no different than any other con artist or magician putting on show. From a magician's blog:
They use props to help them connect with the audience and make the show more engaging. The magician's goal is to create an entirely different world from reality. They want to make it as believable as possible so that the audience can suspend disbelief and be completely immersed in this alternate world.
I hate to remind you of this, but the plates are not available for examination. Whatever physical object Joseph had, it remained under the cover of sheets, a box or some such. There is good reason to believe that the experiences of the witness who saw them uncovered were visionary in nature (which, FTR, is not the same thing as saying they weren't real). So we have no idea what the physical reality is here. For something that is the KEY to everything, God sure left a hell of a lot of room for skepticism.
Earlier I said:
The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.
That the plates were real is factual. Why? Joseph Smith struggled mightily to secure and protect them. Even at great cost and sacrifice.
Why would he do that if the plates were merely a prop?
Are you suggesting that all of the stuff that went on in regards to the plates previous to the translation was one big charade/act?...
Lol. No, your story is not factual. All the things you suggested are exactly what one would do to convince an audience something is real. It is really quite naïve to insist those actions are proof that something is real.
That the plates were real is factual. Why? Joseph Smith struggled mightily to secure and protect them. Even at great cost and sacrifice.
Why would he do that if the plates were merely a prop?
Are you suggesting that all of the stuff that went on in regards to the plates previous to the translation was one big charade/act?...
Lol. No, your story is not factual. All the things you suggested are exactly what one would do to convince an audience something is real. It is really quite naïve to insist those actions are proof that something is real.
I think I'm starting to believe in a deity again - when I saw that "proof", before I could stop myself I burst out: "Oh, my god!"
Next week I expect to be talking to my former Branch President - a really, really nice guy. I hope he doesn't try to talk me into going back to church, because in my weakened-by-laughter state I may not be able to resist.
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