Secular folks should worry.

[Res Ipsa]

Even if this were true, which it isn't, the most recent attempts to fix society through Christian values has been to lie and say an election was stolen in order to keep a con-man with no principles, let alone Judaeo-Christian ones, in power, whose support base is comprised of the most vocal Christians in this country who like MG 2.0, yell the loudest about fixing the country through Christian values. And the best example of a Judaeo-Christian value from these same said Christians is the unrestricted right to own as many guns as possible. The best way I can signal my belief in Judaeo-Christianity to vocal Christians in this country like MG 2.0 is to take a picture of my family brandishing assault rifles.

Another way I can signal my belief in Christian values is to show support for Vladimir Putin's attack on Ukraine. If MG 2.0 were to meet me on the street, and the first thing I say to him is I just got back from helping in a soup kitchen, MG would reason it's more likely than not I'm Christian, but there is still a good chance that I'm not. However, if I were to praise Vladimir Putin's war effort and speak with firm belief that he's close to achieving his goals, then MG would believe I'm Christian with near 100% certainty.

And so what "Judaeo-Christian" principles actually mean in practice in today's world is totally up in the air, with a good deal of it being the most reprehensible dredge a person can image. And so "NewsMax MG 2.0" is proposing something that is in essence, meaningless.

I don’t own a gun.

I support Ukraine. I’ve donated to their cause. Putin should be prosecuted for war crimes.

Gadianton, it’s posts like this that cause me a bit of consternation/concern in your behalf.

You’re not the only one around here that gets things SO wrong in the particulars. You paint in large strokes. That can make a mess of things.

Your stereotyping is noted.

I do agree with you that there is a spectrum of ‘conservatism’ with gun toters and far right extremists at the whacko end.

Folks like me who find ourselves as somewhat akin to Heinz 57’s when it comes to nailing us down to any one political party find folks like you amusing. That you (you’re not alone, Res Ipsa has been doing the very same thing on this thread) can come across as so smart and yet be so dumb is well, almost funny.

Except it’s not.

As self confirmed moderate I actually find the stereotyping somewhat disheartening. It is this sort of behavior and pigeon holing that I find worrisome as I look forward with hope to an ongoing civil society.

We can look at groups and trends as having characteristics that may go against our own ‘mission statements’ and ‘articles of faith’, but we need to be careful at pointing our fingers directly at an individual and blazing away indiscriminately.

On this board Doc is a master, although in an almost infantile way, of doing this. He’s rather transparent. Others are a bit more opaque and at times translucent in their approach.

Stereotyping is what is causing a good bit of the disarray that we are seeing as a gradual but noticeable increase in and across our nation and throughout our society. We need to see each other as individuals first and members of whatever tribe we belong to somewhere after that.

Concerns expressed in the OP are warranted methinks. I see markers/evidence of my concerns in a small microcosm that we call DiscussMormonism.com.

But I understand others may not agree. And here you would be the majority voice.

Regards,
MG

58 pages spent "stereotyping" people who don't believe in God. And now it's opposite day.

[Gadianton]

I don’t own a gun.

I support Ukraine. I’ve donated to their cause. Putin should be prosecuted for war crimes.

Gadianton, it’s posts like this that cause me a bit of consternation/concern in your behalf.

You’re not the only one around here that gets things SO wrong in the particulars. You paint in large strokes. That can make a mess of things.

Your stereotyping is noted.

Ajax doesn't own a gun either, MG, but that doesn't stop him from having a meltdown over Second Amendment at least twice a week. But that is beside the point. I'm not stereotyping. Your mistaken reading is understandable this time, however. I can see how somebody would think I'm stereotyping. I did not say that all conservative Christians are gun toting fanatics and Putin supporters. What I said is that two unique and reprehensible behaviors would signal Christianity with greater accuracy than any of those virtues you are arguing for in this thread, therefore appealing to "Judea-Christian" principles is meaningless.

I'm not saying that all Christians are Putin supporters, I'm saying that nearly all American Putin supporters are right-wing Christians who listen to Tucker Carlson like you do. Do you deny listening to Tucker Carlson and holding a generally favorable view of him? I'm saying if somebody in America with no discernable accent starts going off on pro-Putin rant, you're going to assume that the person is some brand of conservative Christian. The same with taking family photo snapshots with big guns after a school shooting. When you see that photo, there is no doubt in your mind the family self-identifies as strong family-value Christians. See what what I'm saying? However, if someone takes a photo of working in a soup kitchen, it would still go either way in your mind -- there is a good chance the person is Christian but not with nearly the same certainty.

So I would say, clean your own damn house first before you start preaching about your values to the rest of the world, because the worst of the worst right now finds cover under the rubric of "Judea Christianity".

[malkie]

I don’t own a gun.

I support Ukraine. I’ve donated to their cause. Putin should be prosecuted for war crimes.

Gadianton, it’s posts like this that cause me a bit of consternation/concern in your behalf.

You’re not the only one around here that gets things SO wrong in the particulars. You paint in large strokes. That can make a mess of things.

Your stereotyping is noted.

Ajax doesn't own a gun either, MG, but that doesn't stop him from having a meltdown over Second Amendment at least twice a week. But that is beside the point. I'm not stereotyping. Your mistaken reading is understandable this time, however. I can see how somebody would think I'm stereotyping. I did not say that all conservative Christians are gun toting fanatics and Putin supporters. What I said is that two unique and reprehensible behaviors would signal Christianity with greater accuracy than any of those virtues you are arguing for in this thread, therefore appealing to "Judea-Christian" principles is meaningless.

I'm not saying that all Christians are Putin supporters, I'm saying that nearly all American Putin supporters are right-wing Christians who listen to Tucker Carlson like you do. Do you deny listening to Tucker Carlson and holding a generally favorable view of him? I'm saying if somebody in America with no discernable accent starts going off on pro-Putin rant, you're going to assume that the person is some brand of conservative Christian. The same with taking family photo snapshots with big guns after a school shooting. When you see that photo, there is no doubt in your mind the family self-identifies as strong family-value Christians. See what what I'm saying? However, if someone takes a photo of working in a soup kitchen, it would still go either way in your mind -- there is a good chance the person is Christian but not with nearly the same certainty.

So I would say, clean your own damn house first before you start preaching about your values to the rest of the world, because the worst of the worst right now finds cover under the rubric of "Judea Christianity".

And this is why not only secular folks should worry, but everyone who would like to live free from a right-wing Evangelical theocracy should worry.

[MG 2.0]

You didn't make a case. I see you complain about Gad stereotyping but all you did was wrongly stereotype people you don't seem to understand at all.

The case that I and others are trying to make is that a common set of values is necessary for a civil society to coalesce and live together peaceably. At the end of the day we all will, by necessity, need to subscribe to a ‘civil religion’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

in which we can find common purpose and elements of cohesion which bring us together rather than spread/push us further apart. Currently I’m afraid that we, as a nation, have multiple civil religious impulses which do not seem to find common ground with each other. At its core I think the OP and other links provided in this thread have a common concern for the future common religion of our nation which seems to be in danger of fraying apart.

If secular humanists, Christians, Muslims, atheists, and those of whatever religious or non religious stripe can find common ground and have certain principles and practices that bring us together rather than drive us apart…we will be OK. Essentially, this is the point I’m trying to make but with the caveat that there are indications that we have some work to do to create a ‘civil religion’ that we can all adhere to and agree on.

When I refer to Judaeo Christian principles I am simply referring to principles such as honesty, integrity, empathy, concern for one’s neighbor, acceptance and allowance for individual beliefs, service without expectation of return, etc.

The research results in one of the original links in this thread pointed out that GenZ is not as concerned with the importance of strict honesty and truth telling. I suppose an argument could be made one way or the other as to whether this is true or not and whether this is a trend to be concerned with. My personal belief, however, is that if there is a generational trend towards disbelief in a higher power that we are responsible/accountable to we will see gradual but sure movement in a civil religion that is based heavily on ethical/moral relativism rather than tried and true ethical/moral principles that have brought us this far.

Honesty and other historical virtues could cease to be as relevant as they have been over times past.

That’s my concern and that’s the purpose in which I started this thread and suggested that we all ought to be concerned about the moral fabric of our nation as we look to the future. Now if we can agree and come to a common ground on what our civil religion and practice consists of and we are able to respect individual positions of religiosity or lack thereof, we’ll be OK. It’s a work in process but I sometimes find myself wondering whether we and our children and their children will all be able to come together and live in a peaceful and just society.

Some voices shout a lot louder and seem to be deaf to the voices of those that are unlike themselves.

And at the end of the day I think this was more or less the concern/point of the Deseret News editorial and other sources I linked to.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

The need for common values is a case I've argued for many times. But it must, of necessity, be pluralistic and not favor one religious culture over another. We are diverse and varied. the idea the US as a whole reflects some subgroups views has never been the case historically. In other words, the values we hold in common must be secular.

The historic version of this was a belief in the rule of law, the separation of powers, the access to opportunity that comes from being in a little "d" democratic society.

It's why the OP landed so poorly. It asserts a premise that we must have a return to a christian-religious society or fail when that is a myth asserted by religion Christians that would effectively convert our "civic religion" to just plain old religion as civics.

[honorentheos]

And at the end of the day I think this was more or less the concern/point of the Deseret News editorial and other sources I linked to.

Regards,
MG

At the end of the day the concern of the articles authors and distribution by the DesNews and those like you is one of cultural market share.

[sock puppet]

The research results in one of the original links in this thread pointed out that GenZ is not as concerned with the importance of strict honesty and truth telling.

Based on his past, I'd have to say that Dallin Oaks is not all that concerned with strict honesty and truth telling either.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The need for common values is a case I've argued for many times. But it must, of necessity, be pluralistic and not favor one religious culture over another. We are diverse and varied. the idea the US as a whole reflects some subgroups views has never been the case historically. In other words, the values we hold in common must be secular.

The historic version of this was a belief in the rule of law, the separation of powers, the access to opportunity that comes from being in a little "d" democratic society.

It's why the OP landed so poorly. It asserts a premise that we must have a return to a christian-religious society or fail when that is a myth asserted by religion Christians that would effectively convert our "civic religion" to just plain old religion as civics.

I think the only way MG’s vision can kind theoretically of work is to go back to a heavily balkanized country tied together through a loose federal confederacy in charge of diplomacy, national defense, and maybe trade. What this looks like today is perhaps 50+ states, a hundred+ city-states, and then mass migrations of people looking for their utopia (ask the early Mormon Scandinavian Saints how that worked out for them when they were gouged by already entrenched entities). Whatever Hell on Earth conservatives think they’re living through right now with drag queens and public roads would pale in comparison to the utopias their ilk would create.

- Doc

[Morley]

When I refer to Judaeo Christian principles I am simply referring to principles such as honesty, integrity, empathy, concern for one’s neighbor, acceptance and allowance for individual beliefs, service without expectation of return, etc.

Reading this made me throw up a little in my mouth. These are not Judaeo-Christian values. Where these exist, it's because they're universal human values that cut across the boundaries of culture and religion. That you try to assign exclusive ownership to your own club is beyond the pale.

[sock puppet]

When I refer to Judaeo Christian principles I am simply referring to principles such as honesty, integrity, empathy, concern for one’s neighbor, acceptance and allowance for individual beliefs, service without expectation of return, etc.

Reading this made me throw up a little in my mouth. These are not Judaeo-Christian values. Where these exist, it's because they're universal human values that cut across the boundaries of culture and religion. That you try to assign exclusive ownership to your own club is beyond the pale.

Maybe MG 2.0 is at heart a sociopath, and only the fear of god's punishment makes MG 2.0 ever tell the truth, have any integrity, concern for, accepting of others, etc. If it wasn't for fear of god's wrath, MG 2.0 might be an absolute, total reprobate.