Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[Gadianton]

...they genuinely don't notice how offensive...

I keep forgetting to mention this as it's relevant to so many threads and interactions. Some guy on a YouTube podcast clip I saw recently said, "A gentleman is never rude accidentally."

[hauslern]

lol I like that. Reminds me of Mark Twain: "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[IWMP]

the human inclination for evil is strong enough that we as a family learn through the fact that we are exposed to real possibilities of suffering injury and injustice. I think that explains something but why is the human inclination to evil hard to overcome? I have no access to an answer for that.

I'm not sure that suffering and injustice have much to do with evil or human inclination to do evil. It feels like a separate entity to me.

I think, there is so much going on around us. So many inputs into our minds and development. The media, the conflict, the media created conflict. We all behave in relatively similar ways based of the culture we live in and what we are exposed to. Several times I've decided to seek out a particular item of clothing that I think I might like only to discover not long later that it has become a fashion trend. I used to think that I was ahead of the fashion, but I have since realised that it is subliminal. I discovered this when I found myself wanting something I'd never wear.

I don't think we are evil people. I like what Marcus said about the bird and sparrows, we assume that what is happening is cruel and evil but it's a part of nature right? We like to assume nature can't be evil. I know that contradicts but it is possible to consider both ideas.

I always thought the LDS idea of children under 8 having a place in heaven is related to children under 8 not being accountable for sin. And so they would be considered as already perfect enough for heaven. Interestingly we can say that children under 8 don't have accountability but they do have an element of what I would consider as being free will or the right to choose. I don't see a problem here. Basically what I'd imagine this to mean is that if a child under 8 made a choice that was considered evil then there would be an amount of consideration placed on circumstance rather than the identity of the child. We also assume that children can be moulded easier to choose a better path because they are still developing.

Edit...
To clarify. I don't like that the sparrows were killed, I like the point Marcus was making.

[Marcus]

...they genuinely don't notice how offensive...

I keep forgetting to mention this as it's relevant to so many threads and interactions. Some guy on a YouTube podcast clip I saw recently said, "A gentleman is never rude accidentally."

Good point. I think it is only the isolation that leads some to this position. In the real, non-anonymous world they would get their ass kicked immediately, and learn.

[Gadianton]

I'm not sure that suffering and injustice have much to do with evil or human inclination to do evil. It feels like a separate entity to me.

MG isn't going to take the time to understand something, he already has it made up in his mind that nobody can handle his "creator God", and repeats his preconceived objections over and over no matter what anybody says.

Yes, "accidental evil" -- fires, earthquakes, being born in an infested swamp, none of this has anything to do with "free will". God would be accountable for it, not humans with their free will to sin. Even if Adam caused the fall with the apple, all the mechanics were programmed by God, Adam just pushed a button. It would be like leaving an loaded AK out for a kid to pick up and then claiming you had nothing to do with it.

[Philo Sofee]

I'm not sure that suffering and injustice have much to do with evil or human inclination to do evil. It feels like a separate entity to me.

MG isn't going to take the time to understand something, he already has it made up in his mind that nobody can handle his "creator God", and repeats his preconceived objections over and over no matter what anybody says.

Yes, "accidental evil" -- fires, earthquakes, being born in an infested swamp, none of this has anything to do with "free will". God would be accountable for it, not humans with their free will to sin. Even if Adam caused the fall with the apple, all the mechanics were programmed by God, Adam just pushed a button. It would be like leaving an loaded AK out for a kid to pick up and then claiming you had nothing to do with it.

Exactly why I won't play his silly already won for him game. It's a loaded proposition that proves only one thing. Mormon minds made up have stopped all analysis and thinking, they already know the truth, so all they want to do is testify of it. Their learning has truly stagnated, no matter how vehemently they claim otherwise. 2 + 2 = 6 ALWAYS since their Holy Ghost has told them, and there is no evidence that will change that for them.

[IWMP]

I'm not sure that suffering and injustice have much to do with evil or human inclination to do evil. It feels like a separate entity to me.

MG isn't going to take the time to understand something, he already has it made up in his mind that nobody can handle his "creator God", and repeats his preconceived objections over and over no matter what anybody says.

Yes, "accidental evil" -- fires, earthquakes, being born in an infested swamp, none of this has anything to do with "free will". God would be accountable for it, not humans with their free will to sin. Even if Adam caused the fall with the apple, all the mechanics were programmed by God, Adam just pushed a button. It would be like leaving an loaded AK out for a kid to pick up and then claiming you had nothing to do with it.

If this is the teachings that Mormons believe then why do they spend so much time feeling guilty for everything they do and think?

I do think there is an element of nature affecting our choices. I do wonder if someone who is clinically insane can be considered as not having a choice in the evil they do to a degree. I don't believe God is responsible for natural disasters. I believe that happens because it is a part of nature and how the earth works and lives. Ultimately though, people have choice, the level of choice they have may vary depending on lots of factors.

Christianity affects how we see the eternal consequences. Some Christians believe Jesus saved and if you believe you are saved. Some believe your actions determine your judgement. That's where the difference lies.

[I Have Questions]

I do have faith in and believe that the CofJCofLDS is God’s Kingdom on earth. That it has been restored through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That the keys of authority which came to him now reside in President Russell M. Nelson. The Plan of Salvation and Exaltation is real and we continue to progress and exist as individuals after we die. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins and did that which no other could do. He was the spotless and perfect example for us to follow. The Priesthood has been restored and those men who have received it and live worthily hold the keys of blessing their own families and lead them in righteousness. God lives. Jesus is the Christ. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel bring us to the Covenant Path that will guide us towards salvation and exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom if we prove worthy. Satan is real. Evil is real. We are being tried and tested to see if we will stay true to what we’ve been given. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Your Primary President would be thrilled with that little wall of ambiguity. But I’m not sure you understand what you’ve said. When you say “Satan is real. Evil is real.” What do you mean, specifically?

Why does MG always run away?

[Gadianton]

Christianity affects how we see the eternal consequences. Some Christians believe Jesus saved and if you believe you are saved. Some believe your actions determine your judgement. That's where the difference lies.

Earlier in the thread, I gave my reasons for believing the opposite of this. Well, I agree this is the way theologians like Dan frame it, but I think they are wrong. I said that the real difference is between whether you believe in an empty hell or a full hell.

I put a quote by DCP besides a quote by Sam Harris. The quote from Dan was about withholding judgement from Hitler, for all the reasons you discussed earlier about upbringing, environmental factors and the like (all of Sam Harris's reasons), even though he's a radical believer in free will. And that's because I think the idea of "free will" is nonsensical (in terms of a-causality which is how Dan believes it), as when push comes to shove, nobody can talk intelligently about something that isn't conceivable. The world is conceptualized post-hoc in terms of cause and effect. It doesn't matter what experiments show, because there is no way to interpret experiments in terms that contradict cause and effect. So the atheist position (when the bar is a-causality) isn't wrong, but it's circular.

I also gave the example of fire and brimstone preaching that claims Jesus saves the elect, but if they believe in a full hell, they can't avoid personal actions. They say of people who get up on that stage and say the sinners prayer, but then down the road they "backslide", they say these people weren't saved in the first place. And so it becomes a distinction without a difference -- full hell people are effectively saying that your actions determine your judgement.

[huckelberry]

I'm not sure that suffering and injustice have much to do with evil or human inclination to do evil. It feels like a separate entity to me.

MG isn't going to take the time to understand something, he already has it made up in his mind that nobody can handle his "creator God", and repeats his preconceived objections over and over no matter what anybody says.

Yes, "accidental evil" -- fires, earthquakes, being born in an infested swamp, none of this has anything to do with "free will". God would be accountable for it, not humans with their free will to sin. Even if Adam caused the fall with the apple, all the mechanics were programmed by God, Adam just pushed a button. It would be like leaving an loaded AK out for a kid to pick up and then claiming you had nothing to do with it.

Gadianton, I think both you and IWP both missed what I had hoped to say. Perhaps MG set up expectations. I do not think all the natural dangers and disasters in life are a result of human evil. I realize some people say the earth changed with the fall but that thinking is absurd. It is clear that the dangers of flood, fire, earthquake, and drought--as well as disease and dangerous predators--are part of the basic structure of creation from the beginning.

People have to invent to learn how do deal with those dangers, hunger, cold, etc.