VegasRefugee wrote:Yes, until you agree with me. Just as you feel I am not applying "what i really know in my heart to be true".
You're assuming again. I challenge you to show where I've said anything like this. I tend to think that many exmormons do believe in their heart that the church is NOT true and I hate it when people demonize exmos by assuming that they left because of pride or sin.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
VegasRefugee wrote:Yes, until you agree with me. Just as you feel I am not applying "what i really know in my heart to be true".
You're assuming again. I challenge you to show where I've said anything like this. I tend to think that many exmormons do believe in their heart that the church is NOT true and I hate it when people demonize exmos by assuming that they left because of pride or sin.
Thank you for saying that. It's not often that we hear believing Mormons acknowledge that we might actually be following our consciences.
VegasRefugee wrote: Would I give my daughter Mein Kampf or a simmilar book to read "because she is entitled to it"?
Would you allow your children to explore scientology without warning them of its nature?
Why not? I studied and wrote an essay on European history at university using Mein Kampf as one of the sources. I would encourage my children to read it. I'd say, "read this and learn how emerging fascist dictators think". The problem is they seldom read more than the daily newspaper.
Of course I would encourage my children to study any religion. I'd encourage them to learn what happened at Waco, and the mind of Koresh. None of them got far enough in the church to open the history books out of interest, but if they had I would have encouraged them, I would have wanted them to read books like Mormon Enigma and In Sacred Loneliness. The one child who remained interested asked me many questions, and I told her all about polygamy and other controversial aspects of church history, but I never made a decision for her. When she left the church it was not for doctrinal or historical reasons, but she felt the church was "mainpulative", and some of it "fake", meaning that she felt it made her feel "self-righteous" and above others, and many of the relationships were based more on the church (the push to date and get married in the temple) than on how she really felt and what she wanted in life and in a partner (not just "someone with a strong testimony"). Undoubtedly some of my views rubbed off on her, but I wasn't going to BS her and present a happy ever after Molly Mormon scenario. It's harder to keep them in the church than to get them to leave. But maybe you don't see it that way. And from reading what Who Knows wrote, I feel sorry for his situation. I don't believe any parent should put that much pressure on their children. But I do understand this can happen in TBM situations.
Generational Mormons born in places like Utah and Idaho do seem to have more of a challenge because they come from such large Mormon families, but judging by the turnout on RFM, it looks like all that indoctrination didn't work. In Australia the inactivity rate is around 70%. Go into a ward of 600-700 on the rolls and you'll find about 100 active. You're not the one swimming upstream, your wife and the church are.
Your missing the point yet again ray. Would you give a 4 year old mein kampf or Dianetics essons and then expect them to discern bulshit from reality? No wiggling out of this question. Yes or no?
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:No, I am not being riddiculous. The paralell to the hitler youth stands. They indoctrinate the youth using song, a sense of camraderie, play acting, etc. Once you step outside the circle of Mormonism you might see this as well.
Oh wow, you're right. This is dangerous. And to think I had a highschool song and comraderie too. They must have been secret Nazis in disguise. I'll be sure to homeschool my children so they don't get brainwashed by that. And heaven forbid they should learn the National Anthem!</sarcasm>
A cult by any other name is still a cult.
Michael Shermer said that if science is a relgion then everything is a religion so the word loses meaning. I would say that if the church is a cult because it has comraderie and songs, then many things are cults and the word loses its meaning.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
VegasRefugee wrote:Yes, until you agree with me. Just as you feel I am not applying "what i really know in my heart to be true".
You're assuming again. I challenge you to show where I've said anything like this. I tend to think that many exmormons do believe in their heart that the church is NOT true and I hate it when people demonize exmos by assuming that they left because of pride or sin.
If this is true then you do not represent the norm.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:No, I am not being riddiculous. The paralell to the hitler youth stands. They indoctrinate the youth using song, a sense of camraderie, play acting, etc. Once you step outside the circle of Mormonism you might see this as well.
Oh wow, you're right. This is dangerous. And to think I had a highschool song and comraderie too. They must have been secret Nazis in disguise. I'll be sure to homeschool my children so they don't get brainwashed by that. And heaven forbid they should learn the National Anthem!</sarcasm>
A cult by any other name is still a cult.
Michael Shermer said that if science is a relgion then everything is a religion so the word loses meaning. I would say that if the church is a cult because it has comraderie and songs, then many things are cults and the word loses its meaning.
follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...follow the prophet...
he knows the way
not exactly something you'll find in your high school glee club but more like something you find within indoctrination.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:No, I am not being riddiculous. The paralell to the hitler youth stands. They indoctrinate the youth using song, a sense of camraderie, play acting, etc. Once you step outside the circle of Mormonism you might see this as well.
Oh wow, you're right. This is dangerous. And to think I had a highschool song and comraderie too. They must have been secret Nazis in disguise. I'll be sure to homeschool my children so they don't get brainwashed by that. And heaven forbid they should learn the National Anthem!</sarcasm>
A cult by any other name is still a cult.
Michael Shermer said that if science is a relgion then everything is a religion so the word loses meaning. I would say that if the church is a cult because it has comraderie and songs, then many things are cults and the word loses its meaning.
you can't get away with quoting shermer and in the next breath use it to prop up a religious viewpoint. Its like taking a marxist quote in context and using it to prop up capitalism.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:you can't get away with quoting shermer and in the next breath use it to prop up a religious viewpoint. Its like taking a marxist quote in context and using it to prop up capitalism.
I'm not using it to defend religion. I'm using it to refute the absurd. I have great respect for Michael Shermer. Also, David Hume is one of my favorite philosophers. I'm probably a skeptic at heart. I just happen to have the guts to doubt my doubts.
I'm not so delusional as to think that I can prove the church is true. Nor do I think that absence of contradictory evidence is a good reason to believe in something (like the FSM or IPU). Nor is emotion sufficient. I just look at what I want to become, and I feel that the core teachings of the church are more useful in that regard than any other religion or non-religion. That is to say that I will not regret having lived life the way I live it now even if I later discover I was wrong.
But let's say I never discover myself to be in error but that I am. I still live my life such that I think my happiness will be maximized even if I am mistaken. I do not see any barriers from the church to my happiness. It is also the case that my happiness cannot be maximized without helping others, so this isn't a completely selfish persuit.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
VegasRefugee wrote:you can't get away with quoting shermer and in the next breath use it to prop up a religious viewpoint. Its like taking a marxist quote in context and using it to prop up capitalism.
I'm not using it to defend religion. I'm using it to refute the absurd. I have great respect for Michael Shermer. Also, David Hume is one of my favorite philosophers. I'm probably a skeptic at heart. I just happen to have the guts to doubt my doubts.
I'm not so delusional as to think that I can prove the church is true. Nor do I think that absence of contradictory evidence is a good reason to believe in something (like the FSM or IPU). Nor is emotion sufficient. I just look at what I want to become, and I feel that the core teachings of the church are more useful in that regard than any other religion or non-religion. That is to say that I will not regret having lived life the way I live it now even if I later discover I was wrong.
But let's say I never discover myself to be in error but that I am. I still live my life such that I think my happiness will be maximized even if I am mistaken. I do not see any barriers from the church to my happiness. It is also the case that my happiness cannot be maximized without helping others, so this isn't a completely selfish persuit.
But life is so much more enjoyabe ouside of Mormonism. No constant self loathing, no fake history, no members pestering you.
You just don't know what you are missing, that's your problem. It sounds like your comfortable in your confusion.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning