Questions about BYU

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_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

I don't see it as sticking in their craw. I see it as in inherently moral weakness to which you are admitting. One which causes us to roll our eyes and comment. We ask, how are we to trust and listen to your statments when you, on the one hand, use anonymity to ridicule the Church and its brethren, and on the other hand, claim publicly to be a "TR holding active member with multiple callings." Your posts on this board would lead to church discipline, and clearly so because little of it is carefully couched, and for that reason you lack the courage to use your name.


Plutarch...I'm disappointed. You're still using your one-note anonymity argument? I thought you could think of something more original by now. How do you know that Harmony's posts would lead to church discipline? Isn't that for HER ward leaders to decide? She has stated in prior threads that her husband, and her Church leaders are aware of her positions regarding the Church.

We're beating a dead horse here with this anonymity stance. Like it or not, most people on message boards...including yourself...use aliases. They use them for various reasons...safety being among what I would guess would be the top 3...at least for women.
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

liz3564 wrote:We're beating a dead horse here with this anonymity stance. Like it or not, most people on message boards...including yourself...use aliases. They use them for various reasons...safety being among what I would guess would be the top 3...at least for women.


What's interesting is that most of the "apologists" have no compunction about using their real names. My name is McClellan. My username is how I used to tell people to spell my name so they could pronounce it during my mission in Uruguay. maklelan is easier than my real last name for people to recognize, and I never have to worry about anyone already having the same name anywhere I register. Sometimes I'll sign my posts -Dan. Daniel Peterson, David Bokovoy, Bill Hamblin, myself and several other pro-Mormon posters don't seem to care.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

maklelan wrote:
liz3564 wrote:We're beating a dead horse here with this anonymity stance. Like it or not, most people on message boards...including yourself...use aliases. They use them for various reasons...safety being among what I would guess would be the top 3...at least for women.


What's interesting is that most of the "apologists" have no compunction about using their real names. My name is McClellan. My username is how I used to tell people to spell my name so they could pronounce it during my mission in Uruguay. maklelan is easier than my real last name for people to recognize, and I never have to worry about anyone already having the same name anywhere I register. Sometimes I'll sign my posts -Dan. Daniel Peterson, David Bokovoy, Bill Hamblin, myself and several other pro-Mormon posters don't seem to care.


How do you know Liz's name isn't Liz? How do you know I'm not known as Blink? (it used to feel really weird when I'd be hailed as Sister Blink, but I've gotten used to it) You make assumptions that are incorrect, just like our dearly beloved Plu.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Plutarch wrote:We ask, how are we to trust and listen to your statments when you, on the one hand, use anonymity to ridicule the Church and its brethren, and on the other hand, claim publicly to be a "TR holding active member with multiple callings." Your posts on this board would lead to church discipline, and clearly so because little of it is carefully couched, and for that reason you lack the courage to use your name.

So now one can be "disciplined" for trashing BYU?! in my opinion, Harmony would not be punished for her exercise of free speech here (I'm really surprised that you, as a lawyer, seem to have such apparent disdain for free expression and debate). And if she did reveal her real name, what would you do -- sic the SCMC on her? My God, man, what is it with you and your threats of Church discipline?!

Ok, rant over. Now let's have a history lesson. If you think anything is wrong with anonymity, take it up with the Lord, because He "inspired" Joseph Smith to use anonymity several times in LDS canon. As I'm sure you are well aware, many revelations received by Joseph between 1832 and 1834, and which appeared in the original 1835 D&C, contained numerous pseudonyms for actual persons and places (even Jesus had one!). These pseudonyms appeared in the original D&C sections 77, 81, 89, 93, 100, 101 and 102 (currently numbered as D&C sections 78, 82, 92, 96, 103, 104 and 105). All of these revelations deal, to some degree, with temporal matters such as the united firm and Church-owned properties (i.e., financial issues). As originally given, the recorded revelations did not contain pseudonyms; they were added later when the D&C was to be first published in 1835. Not all such persons were finally indentified until the D&C version published in 1981 (you can still see some of the pseudonyms in present-day D&C 82:11).

The reasons for the pseudonyms being added post-revelation come from Orson Pratt. In a letter to BY, Orson Pratt said:

"When the Kirtland edition of the Book of Covenants was arranged for the printer, it was considered best to substitute fictitious names for the real names obtained in certain revelations relative to stewardship of firm; & this was done that their creditors in Cainhannoch (i.e., New York) should not take advantage of this church firm; But now, as the firm no longer exists, and the members of it are mostly dead either temporally or spiritually, would it not be wisdom to publish in our next edition the real names of places, things, & persons as they are contained in the original manuscripts?"

(Letter dated Nov. 20, 1852, from Orson Pratt to Brigham Young, Brigham Young Collection, LDS Church Archives).

Thus, it appears a big reason for the pseudonyms was to hide Church leaders from creditors (remember, the revelations with pseudonyms deal with financial issues and property).

As to how this decision was made (Orson attributed the changes to Joseph), Orson Pratt reveals this:

"When at length the time arrived to print the manuscripts, it was thought best not to publish them all, on account of our enemies, who were seeking every means to destroy the Prophet and the Church. On account, however, of the great anxiety of the church to see them in print, it was concluded, through the suggestions of the Spirit, that by altering the real names given in the manuscripts, and substituting fictitious ones in their stead, they might thus safely appear in print without endangering the welfare of the individuals whose real names were contained therein. It was by this means that several revelations were permitted to appear in print perhaps for many long years, or at least until more favorable circumstances would have permitted them to be made public."

(Orson Pratt, "Explanation of Substituted Names in the Covenants," The Seer 2 (March 1854), p. 228, and Millennial Star 16 (March 18, 1854), pp. 171-73 (emphasis added)).

Thus, if Orson is correct, it was the Lord's idea for Church leaders to use anonymity when discussing financial issues, in order to keep creditors at bay. How is this use of anonymity any different than how it is being used by Harmony, me, or anyone else on this bb?

I realize that constitutional restraints on free speech due not to apply to the LDS Church, but their underlying principles are admirable, and, I think, instructive here. In McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Comm'n, 514 U.S. 334 (1995), the U.S. Supreme Court discussed these principles within the context of anonymity. In upholding this country's strong tradition of anonymity, the court noted (quotes below are separated if they do not follow one another in the opinion; emphasis added):

Anonymous pamphlets, leaflets, brochures and even books have played an important role in the progress of mankind (quoting Talley v. California, 362 U.S. 60 (1960)).

Great works of literature have frequently been produced by authors writing under assumed names (referring to Mark Twain, O. Henry, as well as various pseudonyms used by Benjamin Franklin).

Despite readers' curiousity and the public's interest in identifying the creator of a work of art, an author generally is free to decide whether or not to disclose her true identity. The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible.

Persecuted groups and sects from time to time throughout history have been able to criticize oppressive practices and laws either anonymously or not at all (quoting Justice Black in Talley).

[Justice Black in Talley] recalled England's abusive press licensing laws and seditious libel prosecutions, and he reminded us that even the arguments favoring the ratification of the Constitution advanced in the Federalist Papers were published under fictitious names.

The McIntyre Court also noted that this country's "secret ballot" system stems from the "right to vote one's conscience without fear of retaliation."

I know, I know, you will argue that such legal opinions have no bearing on the Church. This is technically correct, but since we LDS believe that the Lord Himself inspired the men who created the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights), should not these admirable principles undergirding certain freedoms, as expressed in McIntyre, give you (and the Church) some pause in your efforts to strip Harmony (or anyone else) of her anonymity so that the Church can 'find her out' and discipline her for expressing her opinions? I think so, and I think the Lord would agree (if His inspiring Joseph to use pseudonyms to preserve early Church leaders' anonymity from their creditors, is any indication).

Just my $.02.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

harmony wrote:
maklelan wrote:
liz3564 wrote:We're beating a dead horse here with this anonymity stance. Like it or not, most people on message boards...including yourself...use aliases. They use them for various reasons...safety being among what I would guess would be the top 3...at least for women.


What's interesting is that most of the "apologists" have no compunction about using their real names. My name is McClellan. My username is how I used to tell people to spell my name so they could pronounce it during my mission in Uruguay. maklelan is easier than my real last name for people to recognize, and I never have to worry about anyone already having the same name anywhere I register. Sometimes I'll sign my posts -Dan. Daniel Peterson, David Bokovoy, Bill Hamblin, myself and several other pro-Mormon posters don't seem to care.


How do you know Liz's name isn't Liz? How do you know I'm not known as Blink? (it used to feel really weird when I'd be hailed as Sister Blink, but I've gotten used to it) You make assumptions that are incorrect, just like our dearly beloved Plu.


They aren't full names. You have my full name. You have Dr. Peterson's full name. This is an incredibly stupid thing to argue about.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

This is an incredibly stupid thing to argue about.


AGREED! (not that I was arguing, but still... I think we should all put a star on the calendar on today's date, to commemorate this auspicious occasion: Mak and I agree about something!)
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:Just my $.02.


My comments are not restricted to "trashing BYU." I have never threatened to report anybody to the Church, and I have made that clear many times. My challenge has not been to mere anonymity but to anonymous posters who (1) claim to be temple-recommend holding members of the church and (2) ridicule and mock the Church and living persons in it. The sin is not anonymity (cowardice may not be a sin but a character defect) but hypocrisy. Thus, all your posts about government and D&C anonymity mean nothing to me. Anonymity is protected discourse under the First Amendment, but that protection has no analogue in private organizations and especially organizations that are themselves protected by the First Amendment. (In other words, a First Amendment organization cannot be made the subject of legal criticism for invoking anti-dissent regulations.)

A core element of your persona, of Harmony, of Jason Osbourne, and of MS is that you are active temple recommend holders in the Church. Harmony invokes this credo at every turn to put an extra exclamation point on her apostasy. As I read my New Testament, hypocrisy ranks, as a sin, higher than any other sin condemned in the New Testament. Aside from the shedding of innocent blood and denial of the Holy Ghost. But, I think that the hypocrisy evidenced on this board by those who claim to be TBM but are really apostates approach the much greater sin.

Now, I may be condemned for being judgmental. Perhaps I am. But whom am I judging? Nobody. None of you are real persons, willing to put your names next to your contentions.

P
Last edited by _rcrocket on Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

harmony wrote:
This is an incredibly stupid thing to argue about.


AGREED! (not that I was arguing, but still... I think we should all put a star on the calendar on today's date, to commemorate this auspicious occasion: Mak and I agree about something!)


I also agree that it's a stupid thing to argue about. Take it up with our "faithful" friend, Plutarch. He's the one obsessed with this argument. ;)
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

A core element of your persona, of Harmony, of Jason Osbourne, and of MS is that you are active temple recommend holders in the Church. Harmony invokes this credo at every turn to put an extra exclamation point on her apostasy. As I read my New Testament, hypocrisy ranks, as a sin, higher than any other sin condemned in the New Testament. Aside from the shedding of innocent blood and denial of the Holy Ghost. But, I think that the hypocrisy evidenced on this board by those who claim to be TBM but are really apostates approach the much greater sin.


Of course I invoke it! It causes such heartburn among the apologists, it's just impossible to not invoke it.

Your concern would do you more credit were it actually genuine and backed with obedience to the 2nd commandment, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Now, I may be condemned for being judgmental. Perhaps I am. But whom am I judging? Nobody. None of you are real persons, willing to put your names next to your contentions.

P


Nobody? All right, okay, I was right all along. There is no reason to judge any of us: we're nobody. We're not real. We only become real if Plutarch says we're real. Does that mean my health issues aren't real? I'm up for that!
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

It makes me a bit paranoid when folks you might disagree with on doctrine ask you not to be anonymous. I remember how Vicky Prunty from the Tapestry Against Polygamy had received all types of abuse when her name appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune. Some people on the various sites have related how they have been threatened to be turned into their Bishop or Stake President. We had two ladies on Beliefnet go at it tooth and nail when one recognized the other as a fellow member of her Branch in England. That was a mess. It seems to me we can maintain much more harmonious relations with one another (especially the irascible among us) with anonymity.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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