Do you believe God intervenes & answers prayers?

[_Roger Morrison]

Asbestosman said:

I'm not sure what yo mean about "bringing up the rear" so I can't speak to that, but I doubt that "know" will lose its trendiness. See Alma 30:39. Yes, I recognize that the next verse speaks against the burden of proof and I think that one is indeed becoming less trendy thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

In fact, I think Alma 30:39 brings up a very important point. While I may not know in a certain sense, I actually do believe that there are many who do know through various means. Some of this knowledge likely comes through experiences that are too personal to share. In fact I susepct that knowledge has been and still is communicated from God to people through prayer in such a way that said knowledge could not be explained away by guessing or from an inner-generated experience. However, I also think that the nature of God is such that this could never be scientifically demonstrated to anyone other than the one who experienced it. I am still thinking about details on this argument, but if one decrees by fiat that reality must be demonstrable to all outside observers, then I will have to throw up my arms and leave such a person to their dogmatism.

"Bringing...rear." Sorry, i keep forgetting a lot of my sayings are often several decades short of current... Meant the last troops, etc tagging along. And, i suggested you're not one of them... However you seem out of character holding on to "know" when you know ;-) it's often not to be taken litterally... "Flying S...monster" leaves me in wonder???

Alma 30:39 is his statement. To be believed or not. Does his statement base your "knowing"??? If so, i suggest YOU believe ALMA knows... When you sift through the details, and find something SUBSTANTIAL let me "know", eh?

"...by fiat" seems LDSdic to me... That's me beside you with my arms in the air. Warm regards, Roger

I agree the nature of "God" is such that scientists AND theologians AND church folks on any tier can only state their opinions. No better today than the ancients counting Angels on a pin head...

[_JAK]

(I posted this in the Celestial forum also)
This question has been weighing on my mind after reading a horrific story of the torture and murder of a 2 year old boy Jamie Bulger. You can read the story here if you can stomach it: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/bulger.asp


We see so many disturbing stories in the news everyday of innocent little children or good men and women who are kidnapped and tortured. Some are murdered and some are tortured slaves. After watching the movies "Hotel Ruwanda" and "Blood Diamond" I began to feel very insignificant to God. Why doesn't He care about these people? There is a documentary I want to see called "God grew tired of us" (appropriatly titled), about the African boys who escaped after watching their families murdered by Muslims for their belief in Christ.

Why do I think God would care about what I need if He allows all of these atrocities to happen?
My needs seem pretty shallow in comparison to the people and children crying out to God for help while He ignores their pleas. The innocent Jamie Bulger who was crying for his Mom while she is praying to God for help in finding her son, but He allowed these 10 year old boys to commit the most heinous crime on her little boy.

Why do we even bother asking God to help us? Why should we believe our prayers our so special that He would help us in whatever needs we have?

I know the TBM response would be that God can't interfere with our free agency.
If that is true, there would be no miracles in the scriptures and no stories of God saving anybody. If we believe the scriptures are true, then God does intervene with our agnecy. He picks and chooses who He will intervene with. When I hear stories from LDS who believe God intervened with Priesthood blessings, or saved them in a car accident, I want to ask them: "what makes you think you are so special that God saved you, yet He allows all of these innocent children or families to be victims of the most horrific crimes imaginable?"

I believe in God and Jesus Christ, but I don't understand why we should pray for their blessings or help anymore. I have an easier time believing God never intervenes, and allows nature to take its course. What are your beliefs?

If your prayers have been answered, why do you believe they were?

-------------------

You can believe whatever you wish to believe. There is no evidence to support the view that God intervenes or can be manipulated by prayer. Only the living make claims of intervention. That is, those who are dead or die or are killed in an event say nothing. Hence, the only people who “speak” are those who are alive to do the speaking.

In addition, there is no evidence for God in any of the God mythologies which can be found in various World Religions today.

If God “never intervenes” as you state, God is irrelevant. Evidence does not support any particular or general God myth.

The real question is one of evidence, not what one believes. Historically, people have believed many things which are demonstrably false.

People tend to believe in that which they have been indoctrinated. That tendency does not make their beliefs valid.

Validation is established by evidence objectively observed and subjected to skeptical review. Wishful thinking is not evidence nor is it a valid way to establish conclusion.

JAK

Hello JAK,

Why do you persist in describing prayer as an attempt to manipulate God?

Jersey Girl

Jersey Girl stated:

“Hello JAK,

Why do you persist in describing prayer as an attempt to manipulate God?”
---------------
Because that’s an accurate analysis of what people intend in prayer. They ask God for alteration of the status quo. They want something which they lack or which has been taken away by circumstances beyond their control. AND, they want God’s intervention.

Look at the construction of prayers. Active verbs with God as the subject are in prayers constructed as an attempt to manipulate God.

In your recent discussions you and others have alluded to precisely that.

And from the Christian Playbook:

“Give us this day our daily bread.”
“Forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
“And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.”

There are many versions of prayer attempts to manipulate God for those who subscribe to the power and ability of their notion and invention of God.

“Give us...” or Give me is an overriding theme in most prayers. It's a clear attempt to manipulate a perceived higher power.

JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

Hello JAK,

Let's look at the prayer you used as an example, I'll comment on each line.

“Give us this day our daily bread.”
(We aren't asking for daily bread, we are acknowledging who we believe faithfully provides it)

“Forgive us our trespasses,
(That's a statement of belief, in God's ability to forgive sin. We ask for forgiveness because we believe that God offers it. If not for the offer, we wouldn't have reason to ask for it. How is that manipulation?)

as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
(We acknowledge what God expects of us. How is that manipulation?)

“And lead us not into temptation,
(Again, we are asking for something that we believe God offers. The Bible contains those offers. How is that manipulation to ask for what God offers?)

but deliver us from evil.”
(Same thing here. God offers us deliverance from evil. We are asking for what God offers. How is that manipulation if the offer has been made?)

We are asking God for what He offers us. How can that be manipulation?

Jersey Girl

[_JAK]

Hello JAK,

Let's look at the prayer you used as an example, I'll comment on each line.

“Give us this day our daily bread.”
(We aren't asking for daily bread, we are acknowledging who we believe faithfully provides it)

“Forgive us our trespasses,
(That's a statement of belief, in God's ability to forgive sin. We ask for forgiveness because we believe that God offers it. If not for the offer, we wouldn't have reason to ask for it. How is that manipulation?)

as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
(We acknowledge what God expects of us. How is that manipulation?)

“And lead us not into temptation,
(Again, we are asking for something that we believe God offers. The Bible contains those offers. How is that manipulation to ask for what God offers?)

but deliver us from evil.”
(Same thing here. God offers us deliverance from evil. We are asking for what God offers. How is that manipulation if the offer has been made?)

We are asking God for what He offers us. How can that be manipulation?

Jersey Girl

Hi Jersey Girl,

You confuse the direct quotations with your own interpretation of what you conclude as you re-word the biblical quote. Hence, you make up an interpretation not contained in the words.

I used a limited number of examples to keep it short. People pray for a return to good health when they are seriously ill. They pray to live and survive an impending disaster such as a tornado or hurricane. They pray for sons and daughters in the military in Iraq that their God will keep those sons and daughters safe, alive, and well.

In so doing, they attempt to manipulate God in behalf of their own desires. They want something from their perceived God.

So: “Please God, keep my son safe and protect his life from injury or death in Iraq” is an attempt to manipulate God in compliance with what they want. Otherwise, why pray? They assume that such efforts to manipulate God will be successful. They are fearful and want higher power intervention.

Some 20,000 American soldiers have been seriously injured and more than 3,000 killed for whom prayers were offered as an attempt to manipulate God in behalf of loved ones.

In addition, your response assumes God. No evidence supports the assumption. Religious doctrine/dogma is not evidence. You write as if it were.

However, the issue of attempt to manipulate God was the focus. No evidence has been offered to support that such manipulation is valid. The notion is a perpetuation of ancient scripts in which people who lived wrote the stories. Dead people wrote no stories.

Your interpretations -- rewording of the quote are not the quote.

You assume and make up various notions in your response. None is supported by universal agreement that your interpretation is the correct interpretation.

Further, as we examine prayer as it is currently (or historically) used, we have a subject God which is petitioned to change or control an outcome which the one who constructs the prayer fears will not be the outcome without the prayer.

Otherwise, why pray for a particular outcome? Can you answer that question? Why are people praying for something? It's an attempt to manipulate.

JAK

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jersey Girl, Jesus is said to have said, "..."God" knows your needs. You don't have to ask." (That's pagan/heathen understanding.) "HE" feeds the birds without their asking. Flowers receive their beauty without asking. Sun and rain do their things without being asked... Is that suggesting 'positive energy' cannot be dispatched? It can. BUT that is not "prayer" as Religious superstition understands it.

I'm with JAK. Re-read your last rationalization of the LORD'S PRAYER... Doesn't seem to stack with your other assertions??? Warm regards, Roger

[_Jersey Girl]

JAK and Roger,

I see "manipulation" as one who might appeal to God via bargaining. That is to say, someone who makes God an offer in an attempt to achieve the desired outcome.

What say you?

Jersey Girl

[_marg]

JAK and Roger,

I see "manipulation" as one who might appeal to God via bargaining. That is to say, someone who makes God an offer in an attempt to achieve the desired outcome.

What say you?

Jersey Girl

What JAK is/was saying is that people who pray ...do so with the assumption that an "intervening God exists, and it follows that there is hope this God might intervene favorably on one's behalf in response to a prayer request. He said "You can believe whatever you wish to believe. There is no evidence to support the view that God intervenes or can be manipulated by prayer."

It's obvious by "manipulate" he was meaning in the sense of to "influence". Without a belief in an intervening God there would be no incentive to pray/hope for some sort of intervention. So the focus in JAK's comment should be on "no evidence that God intervenes". By "manipulate" I'm sure JAK didn't mean someone deviously manipulates God but rather through prayer one expects to influence a God to act favorably on one's behalf. And the word "bargaining" does not necessarily follow from the word manipulation and in this instance does not follow from JAK's comment.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jersey Girl, you say:

Jersey Girl wrote:
JAK and Roger,

I see "manipulation" as one who might appeal to God via bargaining. That is to say, someone who makes God an offer in an attempt to achieve the desired outcome.

What say you?

Jersey Girl

I'll take it you mean 'a manipulator'... Could also be referred to as a beggar/pleader/black-mailer/negotiator... which assumes "God" has ears, sentiments & a BIG ego... This does describe the Old Testament Jealous, Vindictive, Anger-prone, whimsical "God" that blessed, or cursed at "HIS" indiscretion.

Strangely enough, belief in such a "God" has, and does, provide some comfort to some folks, especially in times of despair. Might that be somewhat self hypnosis?

What the 'inconsistany' of THIS "God" brings into question is, such a "God" is not 'consistant' with the "God" Jesus introduced/describes in The Sermon On The Mount. His was/is the "God" who works by NATURAL LAWS. A most dependable, trust-worthy, unpedudiced, nondiscrimiating "Fellow/Force".

Science/technology has learned to work within this "God's" parameters. Look around at the evidence! Applied FAITH & WORKS, REALLY WORKS!! EVERYTIME, YOU GET IT RIGHT!

This is not meant to discouage anyone, but to encourage a responsible approach to life. The Spiritual philosophy of Jesus made that abundantly clear:

YOU: seek, ask, knock to open "all&everything". YOU: know the truth to be free. No magic. No begging. No rituals. Just do the right thing and collect the reward--NOW!!

Warm regards, Roger

[_JAK]

JAK and Roger,

I see "manipulation" as one who might appeal to God via bargaining. That is to say, someone who makes God an offer in an attempt to achieve the desired outcome.

What say you?

Jersey Girl

What JAK is/was saying is that people who pray ...do so with the assumption that an "intervening God exists, and it follows that there is hope this God might intervene favorably on one's behalf in response to a prayer request. He said "You can believe whatever you wish to believe. There is no evidence to support the view that God intervenes or can be manipulated by prayer."

It's obvious by "manipulate" he was meaning in the sense of to "influence". Without a belief in an intervening God there would be no incentive to pray/hope for some sort of intervention. So the focus in JAK's comment should be on "no evidence that God intervenes". By "manipulate" I'm sure JAK didn't mean someone deviously manipulates God but rather through prayer one expects to influence a God to act favorably on one's behalf. And the word "bargaining" does not necessarily follow from the word manipulation and in this instance does not follow from JAK's comment.

marg,

Your reading of my comment is as I intended. The multiple examples I used surely confirm that as you and Roger M. understood.

The examples of prayer expressions are extensive. Football players pray that God will help them win.

Close relatives of a person going into risky surgery pray that God will guide the surgeon's hand.

When relatives of those athletes in the bus wreck in Atlanta first learned there was a wreck, many prayed that God would protect their son.

marg stated:
It's obvious by "manipulate" he (JAK) was meaning in the sense of to "influence". Without a belief in an intervening God there would be no incentive to pray/hope for some sort of intervention. So the focus in JAK's comment should be on "no evidence that God intervenes". By "manipulate" I'm sure JAK didn't mean someone deviously manipulates God but rather through prayer one expects to influence a God to act favorably on one's behalf. And the word "bargaining" does not necessarily follow from the word manipulation and in this instance does not follow from JAK's comment.

Again, a correct reading of my statement.

JAK

[_JAK]

JAK and Roger,

I see "manipulation" as one who might appeal to God via bargaining. That is to say, someone who makes God an offer in an attempt to achieve the desired outcome.

What say you?

Jersey Girl

Jersey Girl,

Some standard and general definitions may be applied to “manipulation.”

In response to your statement here, there are without doubt some who think or pray: God, if you get me out of this mess, I’ll never do {it} again.

Perhaps that’s the kind of prayer to which you allude here. A girl who has had sex may pray: God, please don’t let me get pregnant -- I’ll never do this again -- I promise, God -- never again.

That kind of prayer might be a “bargaining” to which you refer. I have every confidence that such prayers are made.
Nevertheless, such a prayer is an attempt to manipulate God for favor. To be sure, such prayer has its origins in ancient religious superstition. However, the age of a superstition does not validate the superstition as some suppose.

Philosophical superstition: We’ve always done things this way, and we’re not going to change now.

JAK