Guy what kind of feedback system are you suggesting? I know what you mean by the Brethren not caring. I've dealt with that before as well. They do stand up in conference and quote the occasional letter they got. It seems like they're responding a lot to crticism by contemporary christianity. On the other hand most have responded very poorly to scientists on issues such as evolution.
Just a note Ajax: they need not respond to scientists over evolutionary theory because they have never taken an institutional stand on that issue and have always maintained a neutral position on it. Its fairly peripheral to our salvation, and hardly a salient point for the Brethren, given the moral and intellectual state our culture is in at present (some of which can be traced to acceptance of evolutionary theory as something more than a mechanical explanation for the development of life, its true, but this still leaves the theory as less than a pressing problem for the Church)
I'm sure one of the reasons they don't respond as well, is that the Lord has revealed virtually nothing to any of them about it beyond what is already known. They can't take a stand on in in any detail, although they never waver about the core truths of the Gospel, including our literal descent from God, that Adam was our first parent, and that the earth is going through a seven thousand year temporal probationary state. Mysteries abound, but the mysteries aren't the Church's main concern.
This has already happened. And yes, he did. And since that time, things have gone sideways, sometimes more so, sometimes less so. But sideways still the same. The constant corrections, the constant missteps have all been because of what happened in the beginning, when Joseph lost his mantle in the barn with Fanny.
Yes, yes Harmony, and if you stay steady at the helm in your rebellion and apostasy from the truth, you will eventually, when brought to the judgment bar of God, lose your...fanny.
The Church is not a democracy. If you don't like it, you may leave. If you don't like it, you may decline baptism. It is Christ's church, not ours.
Christ isn’t here making decisions for the Church. A bunch of old men are. That means it is their Church in every sense of the term. Putting Christ’s stamp on it as if he owns it and approves of its operation is just an attempt to shift focus off of the fact that old men in Utah own and operate the Church.
I don't want to be a member of my church. I want to be a member of Jesus Christ's church.
You’re a member of a Church owned and operated by a bunch of old men in Utah who tell people they are running things in Christ’s stead.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
The Church is not a democracy. If you don't like it, you may leave. If you don't like it, you may decline baptism. It is Christ's church, not ours.
Christ isn’t here making decisions for the Church. A bunch of old men are. That means it is their Church in every sense of the term. Putting Christ’s stamp on it as if he owns it and approves of its operation is just an attempt to shift focus off of the fact that old men in Utah own and operate the Church.
I don't want to be a member of my church. I want to be a member of Jesus Christ's church.
You’re a member of a Church owned and operated by a bunch of old men in Utah who tell people they are running things in Christ’s stead.
This brings things back full circle. What Coggins is saying is that the men in Salt Lake represent Jesus Christ, so in essence, if you disagree or disobey, you are really disobeying Jesus.
Somehow, I see Bob as Governor Tarkin and Coggins as Darth Vader. ;)
Can I be Palpatine?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Somehow, I see Bob as Governor Tarkin and Coggins as Darth Vader. ;)
Can I be Palpatine?
I think Pahoran has already been cast as the Emperor....you wanna play Jar-Jar?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
You've been penciled in as Chewbacca (although we still need someone to play that garbage can monster)...
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
guy sajer wrote:I'm not suggesting that the Bretheren poll members or that they run the Church as a grassroots democracy. Where the heck did you get that from what I said?
I'm suggesting that there ought to be some kind of formal formal feedback loop system by which the Bretheren at least stay are in tune with what's going on in the trenches so that they can feed this into their decision making. Instead, there is no feedback loop system, and the Bretheren are totally isolated (and more, don't appear to give a rat's ass) about what the thoughts, experiences, perceptions, needs, wants, etc. are of the rank and file. Instead, they continue to shove a bland, mass produced, correlated, white, middle class, 1920-1950, culture and world view down the throats of members, both at home and abroad in foreign cultures.
Is there any wonder, therefore, that the large majority of the rank and file (and particularly in foreign countries) vote with their feet and leave, never to return? At some point, if the Church wants to grow sustainably, the Bretheren will have to start giving a rat's ass about what's happening in the trenches and what the needs, perceptions, desires, aspirations, wants, etc. of its rank and file members are.
They talk with members of the Church all the time when they're travelling and not just the local leaders. I know one who made it a point in every area he visited to try to see less-actives. How is that not a feedback system?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo