Dawkins on Mormonism

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_Canucklehead
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Post by _Canucklehead »

Tarski wrote:
Let me spell it out. The silliness of fairies helps to make the point. See how that works? I have to choose something like that because it is hard to find unscientific things that people like you might not actually believe in!

Fairy experts are to fairies what theologians are to gods. (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the nature of fairies)
Doyle fancied himself such an expert: http://www.thefairyfaith.com/fairydoyle01.html

Cereologists are to alien crop circle origins as theologians are to gods (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the origin of crop circles too)

The idea that Dawkin's has to be declared incompetent to pontificate about God because he hasn't immersed himself in the arcane, fanciful metaphysical and religious fantasies of theologians is absurd.

You may as well say that a mainstream evolutionary biologist is incompetent to judge creationism because he didn't read his Bible enough.
Oops, but you probably believe in creationism. I bet you even think that lawyer has something important to say on it. What's his name? Phillip Johnson?? LOL


Exactly!

I find it ironic that people (like coggins here) assert that one cannot begin to criticise religion or Mormonism unless one has formally studied a wide variety of scholarly fields; yet, the church itself sees no problem with committing people to baptism after two missionary discussions (and to a lifetime of 10% tithing after five).
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I am quite serious and I apparently you do not have the intelligence to get the point.

Let me spell it out. The silliness of fairies helps to make the point. See how that works? I have to choose something like that because it is hard to find unscientific things that people like you might not actually believe in!

Fairy experts are to fairies what theologians are to gods. (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the nature of fairies)
Doyle fancied himself such an expert: http://www.thefairyfaith.com/fairydoyle01.html

Cereologists are to alien crop circle origins as theologians are to gods (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the origin of crop circles too)

The idea that Dawkin's has to be declared incompetent to pontificate about God because he hasn't immersed himself in the arcane, fanciful metaphysical and religious fantasies of theologians is absurd.



You are no more intellectually serious or credible Tarski, than the very imaginary fairies you use as a metaphor for serious theological thought. Actually finding someone both as intellectually emaciated and as bereft of an even more important attribute-imagination-as you is all but breathtaking.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I find it ironic that people (like coggins here) assert that one cannot begin to criticise religion or Mormonism unless one has formally studied a wide variety of scholarly fields; yet, the church itself sees no problem with committing people to baptism after two missionary discussions (and to a lifetime of 10% tithing after five).



Beyond the quite obvious fact that you have no living idea whatsoever what you are talking about, Dawkins is a scientist and a rationalist. He is a materialist. He is a reductionist and a positivist. In this context, either he has some credibility, based in an extensive educational background in the subject matter, or his opinions are no more credible than those of anyone picked off the street at random. His degree and knowledge of biology necessarily mean jack squat when he runs his mouth about religion, or many other subjects about which he has a right to his opinion but may know next to nothing.

Oh, but I forget, Dawkins' like you, marg, and Tarski, are "brights". You are among the enlightened ones; the anointed.

The idea that the more educated one is, the less religious one is, is thigh slappingly hilarious (until one comprehends the full extent of its pathetic, nay, even banal intellectual snobbery). This is a function of changes in western culture that have occurred over the last century or so, and especially throughout the post WWII period, and not of education itself. It also flies in the face of the flat historical reality that quite a large number of the smartest, most deeply read and educated people in the world have and are deeply religious.

The present philosophical and ideological monoculture that defines most of the humanities and social science departments in western academia has much more to do with present trends then intelligence (whatever, by the way, you mean by that. Intelligence tests measure a rather narrow range of functions that hardly exhaust the meaning of the term, and which are, of course, mostly those most highly valued by those constructing the tests).

This includes scientists like Dawkin's who are also priests of the religion or metaphysical philosophy of scientism. This is Dawkin's religion, and the only substantive difference between his and mine is the lack of formal, organized worship.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

Coggins7 wrote:
I am quite serious and I apparently you do not have the intelligence to get the point.

Let me spell it out. The silliness of fairies helps to make the point. See how that works? I have to choose something like that because it is hard to find unscientific things that people like you might not actually believe in!

Fairy experts are to fairies what theologians are to gods. (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the nature of fairies)
Doyle fancied himself such an expert: http://www.thefairyfaith.com/fairydoyle01.html

Cereologists are to alien crop circle origins as theologians are to gods (I'd rather listen to Dawkin's on the origin of crop circles too)

The idea that Dawkin's has to be declared incompetent to pontificate about God because he hasn't immersed himself in the arcane, fanciful metaphysical and religious fantasies of theologians is absurd.


You are no more intellectually serious or credible Tarski, than the very imaginary fairies you use as a metaphor for serious theological thought. Actually finding someone both as intellectually emaciated and as bereft of an even more important attribute-imagination-as you is all but breathtaking.


Yes it does take an imagination of sorts, a childish imagination, to believe in fairies, angles, demons, gods and seer stones.
We all have the capability to imagine and even believe such things if our environment is just right. I believed some carzy ass stuff too since I was raised in a very active Mormon family.

You are hilarious Coggins. You think that by using phrases like "intellectually emaciated" you will seem to have said something intelligent.
Yet, as usual, you have no arguments and no evidence.

The fact is that in my younger more naïve days, I probably immersed myself in theological and metaphysical studies more that you ever did. Fortunately I eventually spent more time learning about the real.

by the way, every serious theologian would laugh at the Mormon idea of a male mammal god. LOL
So much for you appeal to the world of theology.
The point is that the theologians whose thought is deepest and most interesting end up promoting a
"God "that differs little from something like Heidegger's "Being", Spinoza's god or some kind of platonic impersonal God.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_marg

Post by _marg »

Coggins7 wrote:

Beyond the quite obvious fact that you have no living idea whatsoever what you are talking about, Dawkins is a scientist and a rationalist. He is a materialist. He is a reductionist and a positivist. In this context, either he has some credibility, based in an extensive educational background in the subject matter, or his opinions are no more credible than those of anyone picked off the street at random. His degree and knowledge of biology necessarily mean jack squat when he runs his mouth about religion, or many other subjects about which he has a right to his opinion but may know next to nothing.

Oh, but I forget, Dawkins' like you, marg, and Tarski, are "brights". You are among the enlightened ones; the anointed.


The supernatural in religion is faith based not evidenced based. There is no way that I can think of to evaluate one God claim from another to determine which is more likely true. God beliefs offer no predictive power which can be verified, no explanations of nature open to critical objective evaluation. So what exactly is there necessary to study? Religious claims of the supernatural throughout history and world wide are authoritative claims absent evidence open to objective verification to support those claims. Religious supernatural claims are therefore vacuous for critical evaluation, and hence there is nothing for Dawkins or any scientist/critical thinker to study with regards to supernatural claims. I'm not sure what you mean by Dawkins is a materialist, reductionist and a positivist, so not comment there unless you want to elaborate further on what you mean.

Re "brights" I believe it was a marketing idea which I don't believe caught on, to counteract the negative perception of "atheist." The LDS uses that similar marketing concept of labeling their organization/members with a word with positive connotations..in their case "Saints" I've never used the word "brights" I do think there is a link between intelligence and critical thinking. In particular I think someone who overcomes indoctrination, who can rationalize their beliefs with intellectual honesty I have found seems to very highly intelligent. Intelligence it seems can also be used to justify beliefs even when the evidence is against. So I think there are many factors involved and I also believe there are many different types of intelligences. It is beyond my study and comprehension.


The idea that the more educated one is, the less religious one is, is thigh slappingly hilarious (until one comprehends the full extent of its pathetic, nay, even banal intellectual snobbery). This is a function of changes in western culture that have occurred over the last century or so, and especially throughout the post WWII period, and not of education itself. It also flies in the face of the flat historical reality that quite a large number of the smartest, most deeply read and educated people in the world have and are deeply religious.


I think people who have a good appreciation of the scientific method, the process of critical thinking are more likely to be less taken in by religious organizations and authorities. They are more likely to overcome indoctrination by authority than someone not trained to think critically. But one doesn't need formal education necessarily for this. However courses in the sciences do teach it. by the way what you mean by religious and what I mean are probably different concepts. I don't view a deist who believes in a non interfering sort of God particularly religious, they don't need to pray or have blind faith. But I view people who belong to and believe the supernatural claims of a religious organization which promotes a interfering with mankind sort of God to be highly religious.

The present philosophical and ideological monoculture that defines most of the humanities and social science departments in western academia has much more to do with present trends then intelligence (whatever, by the way, you mean by that. Intelligence tests measure a rather narrow range of functions that hardly exhaust the meaning of the term, and which are, of course, mostly those most highly valued by those constructing the tests).

This includes scientists like Dawkin's who are also priests of the religion or metaphysical philosophy of scientism. This is Dawkin's religion, and the only substantive difference between his and mine is the lack of formal, organized worship.


You seem to be intent on attacking Dawkins. Those who make claims have the burden of proof. When and if a religious organization can offer good reasoning to warrant their supernatural claims, then they will be taken seriously by science. Attacking Dawkins is not justification to warrant acceptance of any religious supernatural claim.
_ktallamigo
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Hey Coggins

Post by _ktallamigo »

Mormon Intellectual - a contradiction in terms?
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The fact is that in my younger more naïve days, I probably immersed myself in theological and metaphysical studies more that you ever did. Fortunately I eventually spent more time learning about the real.



Not to put to fine a point on it Tarski, but this is known as mental masturbation, and combined with you're Dawkins-like intellectual conceit, you've got a real vicious animal on your hands.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Re: Hey Coggins

Post by _Coggins7 »

ktallamigo wrote:Mormon Intellectual - a contradiction in terms?



May the Bluebird of Happiness regurgitate numerous jellified earthworms on your lower lip.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

The supernatural in religion is faith based not evidenced based.


Define both "faith" and "evidence" as you are using those terms here.


There is no way that I can think of to evaluate one God claim from another to determine which is more likely true.


As long as you are limited to purely rationalistic, empiricist methods of analysis, you are essentially correct.

God beliefs offer no predictive power which can be verified, no explanations of nature open to critical objective evaluation.



Upon what basis need they do so?


So what exactly is there necessary to study? Religious claims of the supernatural throughout history and world wide are authoritative claims absent evidence open to objective verification to support those claims. Religious supernatural claims are therefore vacuous for critical evaluation, and hence there is nothing for Dawkins or any scientist/critical thinker to study with regards to supernatural claims. I'm not sure what you mean by Dawkins is a materialist, reductionist and a positivist, so not comment there unless you want to elaborate further on what you mean.


This is utterly circular, and indicative of precisely the vastly truncated and self referential mental set that infects the secularist mind, especially in its more severe manifestations. This entire argument assumes, a priori, that the material universe that is accessible to human empirical observation and experiment is all that exists. This assumption is not scientifically verifiable, nor is it derivable from any known scientific facts. I appreciate that God is not accessible to verification by independent observers in an objective empirical sense. However, the problem we have here is scientific methodology driven from a methodology to a metaphysics; from a means of apprehending the phenomena of the observable world to a philosophical and metaphysical prescription about phenomena well beyond the reach of its methodology or intellectual tools.

That scientific methodology can tell us nothing directly about God is only a barrier to belief in God if one also accepts the assumptions of scientism; the preconceived meta-scientific claims about the ultimate nature of the universe and reality that are not derivable from scientific knowledge per se but are philosophical claims made within an interpretational framework that interprets scientific data and bodies of knowledge in a certain idiosyncratic way. This interpretatinal framework is much more a function of the psychologies and cultural milieus of scientists than of what may be safely extrapolated from science itself.

I do think there is a link between intelligence and critical thinking.


Of course there is, but you have to define what you mean by intelligence before this has the kind of weight you would like it to have. For example, logical reasoning ability, or the ability to think in very abstract terms (such as mathematical thinking) are certain forms of highly developed cognition but this does not necessarily translate into a person as a whole being having the property of intelligencein a much more overarching sense. That is, cognitive attributes like logical reasoning, abstract thought, or the ability to see inferential relationships between disparate pieces of data must be combined with other intellectual and psychological elements to be considered "intelligence", at least in a Gospel sense.

In other words, "intelligence" is more than the sum of a few cognitive or intellectual parts.



I
n particular I think someone who overcomes indoctrination, who can rationalize their beliefs with intellectual honesty I have found seems to very highly intelligent.


Yes, but you have introduced some very subjective factors into the mix here. This is all dependent on a number of other variables, such as the individual's prior enculturation and socialization, life experiences, and preconceptions or assumptions regarding the universe and its essential qualities. These assumptions will condition, to some extent, what each individual values and understands to be legitimate within the intellectual realm. One highly educated man(say, C.S. Lewis or William Buckley) and another (say Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking) value different aspects of the concept "intelligence" than do others, and hence, emphasize different intellectual attributes or combination of intellectual attributes. But its not just the "data" or the "evidence" that leads one to certain conclusions and not to others. Its a combination of variables and human elements that cannot readily be disentangled from each other.


Intelligence it seems can also be used to justify beliefs even when the evidence is against. So I think there are many factors involved and I also believe there are many different types of intelligences. It is beyond my study and comprehension.


Indeed...


I think people who have a good appreciation of the scientific method, the process of critical thinking are more likely to be less taken in by religious organizations and authorities.



The above begs to many questions to go into here, and assumes a number of things you have not openly stated. The number of competent scientists who have a perfectly good appreciation of the scientific method but who nonetheless have been taken in by AGW belies your assertion here (and numerous examples could be added to this, if not so colorful).


They are more likely to overcome indoctrination by authority than someone not trained to think critically.


Actually marg, I see no reason to believe that one grounded in the scientific method per se, as applied to the study of the natural world, is any more likely to be resistant to philosophical nonsense in other areas, ideological fanaticism, or political passion that has little intellectual content. I see no historical evidence of this whatever. Some scientists are very resistant, while many others have not been. I really don't think grounding in scientific method, or the methods of formal critical thought, are the deciding mediating factors in this.


You seem to be intent on attacking Dawkins. Those who make claims have the burden of proof. When and if a religious organization can offer good reasoning to warrant their supernatural claims, then they will be taken seriously by science. Attacking Dawkins is not justification to warrant acceptance of any religious supernatural claim.
[/quote]

Yes, I don't like Dawkins at all. I think Dawkins is a poster child for the worst of what can happen when man begins to worship himself; the creature, instead of the creator, as Paul said. Dawkin's condescending intellectual snobbery is utterly insufferable. The ironic thing is just how far over his head he is talking about God at all, and how oblivious he is to this state of affairs.

As to religious claims, I can tell you exactly, barring your own unique needs, how you can know for yourself, with perfect certainty, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the Church is what it claims to be. However, you will, a priori, not accept my methodology, preferring your own and claiming that your own is sufficient to comprehend all possible knowledge (this is scientific method used, not as an intellectual methodology per se, but as an oracle). This is your religious claim, and the burden of proof is on you to verify this as well.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

Coggins7 wrote:
The fact is that in my younger more naïve days, I probably immersed myself in theological and metaphysical studies more that you ever did. Fortunately I eventually spent more time learning about the real.



Not to put to fine a point on it Tarski, but this is known as mental masturbation, and combined with you're Dawkins-like intellectual conceit, you've got a real vicious animal on your hands.


So one the one had you fault Dawkins for not treating the serious theologians and then you refer to such theology as mental masturbation (how original! LOL).

You are just going in circles.

May I suggest that you should spend your time digging in your backyard for seer stones?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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