Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:46 pm

KimberlyAnn wrote:Also, a max number of posts per day imposed on overly-eager posters might be a good idea, too.

KA

That's getting a bit draconian.

What no board needs is rules like this: http://www.bordeglobal.com/foruminv/ind ... topic=4730

The other extreme of having few or no rules.

Post by **_Ren** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:50 pm

Moniker wrote:I see no other way to leave it a free speech board. The penalties that Ren suggested strike me as a big pain in the ass. It would be subjective and the Mods would have to spend time making all happy -- impossible. Make yourselves happy. If you need a break -- take it. If you don't enjoy a thread -- start a new one. If you don't like what is being said -- don't look. If you have an issue -- take it on. If the thread is being derailed PM a mod and ask them to split it. I do that all the time.

I agree it would be a pain in the arse. The ideal solution is - of course - for everybody to control their posting. (Me included of course, I foul up all the time...)
But we aren't even talking about a change in the actual rules of the forums. All it would be is a difference in the way those same rules are enforced. Instead of mods having to spend (in my opinion) unreasonable amounts of time splitting and moving threads, they enforce penalties.
I could imagine quite a few penalties going out initially - sure. But I think the penalties would die down, once people learned the rules, and stuck to them.

And I don't really think it would be anti-free speech. I can't run into the offices of my local newspaper and demand an article gets printed. Even free speech has 'rules'.

But I accept there is no perfect solution - and I'm not saying mine is surely the right one. Just some thoughts more than anything...

Post by **_Moniker** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:56 pm

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
Moniker wrote:I see no other way to leave it a free speech board. The penalties that Ren suggested strike me as a big pain in the ass. It would be subjective and the Mods would have to spend time making all happy -- impossible. Make yourselves happy. If you need a break -- take it. If you don't enjoy a thread -- start a new one. If you don't like what is being said -- don't look. If you have an issue -- take it on. If the thread is being derailed PM a mod and ask them to split it. I do that all the time.

I agree it would be a pain in the arse. The ideal solution is - of course - for everybody to control their posting. (Me included of course, I foul up all the time...)
But we aren't even talking about a change in the actual rules of the forums. All it would be is a difference in the way those same rules are enforced. Instead of mods having to spend (in my opinion) unreasonable amounts of time splitting and moving threads, they enforce penalties.
I could imagine quite a few penalties going out initially - sure. But I think the penalties would die down, once people learned the rules, and stuck to them.

And I don't really think it would be anti-free speech. I can't run into the offices of my local newspaper and demand an article gets printed. Even free speech has 'rules'.

But I accept there is no perfect solution - and I'm not saying mine is surely the right one. Just some thoughts more than anything...

We're going to derail this thread. :) Woooop!

Ren, I'm not suggesting that free-speech means you have the RIGHT to have your message heard. Of course no one here does have that right. They can stand on the corner waving garmies and shouting like a loon. Doesn't mean I won't roll up my window and turn up the volume in my car. "We" as the community (editors?) can choose which threads we click on, who we respond to, and who we bother engaging with. :)

I find some of the content of this forum in incredibly poor taste -- yet, it's all subjective, no? I'm sure I'm seen as being in "poor taste" constantly. And if someone has an issue with it they can tell me. Or they can choose to skip my posts (I skip over plenty).

Post by **_Ren** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:15 pm

Moniker wrote:We're going to derail this thread. :) Woooop!

Hopefully not :)
The title of the thread is: Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

...I think we're still talking about that... But for how long? Who knows :)

Ren, I'm not suggesting that free-speech means you have the RIGHT to have your message heard. Of course no one here does have that right. They can stand on the corner waving garmies and shouting like a loon. Doesn't mean I won't roll up my window and turn up the volume in my car. "We" as the community (editors?) can choose which threads we click on, who we respond to, and who we bother engaging with. :)

I do see what you're saying. But I think this ends up with the 'rules' for the kingdoms just being 'vague guidelines'. Their not really 'rules'.

Somebody posts something 'Telestial' in the 'terrestial'.

Problem 1: Is it actually telestial? Maybe I - or someone else - is just a prude, and I / they just 'think' it is telestial? Maybe so - but then since we have the idea of separate kingdoms in place, then somebody has to make that call. If that call isn't possible, then there is no point in having separate kingdoms, and we may as well just have 1 big forum.
And in my model of 'penalties', it's STILL the 'mods' idea of offensive / on-topic etc. that gets followed, not the individual whims of those on the forum. Because the mods are the ones giving out the penalties. The person getting the penalty can say 'But I don't consider what I posted Telestial material'. The mod can say: 'It doesn't matter whether you think it is or not -that's up to me, as the mod. It's your job to learn where WE think things should go. I could have just moved it anyway - so it's not like I've just enforced a rule to a different standard...'

Problem 2: Ok - so assuming we are going to have any meaningful separation at all, we have to have 'rules' that are to be followed. But if we can't penalise people 'in some way' for infractions, then either:

a. The mods have a ****-load of constant cleaning up to do.

OR

b. The rules don't actually get properly followed, and they get turned into 'guidelines'. Because the mods simply don't have time to go through umpteen threads and split things appropriately.

I find some of the content of this forum in incredibly poor taste -- yet, it's all subjective, no? I'm sure I'm seen as being in "poor taste" constantly. And if someone has an issue with it they can tell me. Or they can choose to skip my posts (I skip over plenty).

I agree, in that issue doesn't personally bother me THAT much either, and I just learn to ignore too. But it obviously bothers some others, and I respect that. Because again, I think the counter-argument sounds to me like we can't expect the different forums on this board to 'really' function as they are intended to. It's up to us to 'skip' posts, rather than actually expect that Telestial material WILL go in the telestial room.

Post by **_Ren** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:21 pm

But anyway - that's my 2 dull (Euro) cents.
...I'm not in charge around here. (Thank goodness!)

Post by **_beastie** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:27 pm

First, this is just entertaining ourselves because I seriously doubt Shades is going to agree to a more restrictive moderating style. But let's entertain ourselves, anyway.

From my past experience as a moderator on Z, when mods take on the job of more active moderating, with real consequences, then the rules need to be painfully explicit. When the rules are made painfully explicit and consequences attached, mods' work escalates into constant monitoring to avoid unfair application of the rules. Then people learn how to "fly under the radar" in which they violate the SPIRIT but not the LETTER of the painfully explicit rules and then mods are forced to deal with using subjective judgment to determine which of THOSE violations merits consequences. Plus, when there are real consequences attached, the griping about moderator action escalates as well. It turns into a heck of a thankless job. And you're still going to have people saying pointless, irritating things in the end, because mods aren't gods and just can't enforce all the rules all the time.

Before any sort of action like more restrictive rules and consequences for violation of those rules be put in place, once again, I suggest a simple action that requires NO additional rules or moderator actions - the ignore button.

Post by **_Moniker** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:30 pm

I agree that the "rules" of this board are not followed -- I wish they were. I stumbled across a post from Shades (from about 6 months ago) that said no comments about sexual orientation were to be permitted in terrestrial. I pointed this out to him and showed how comments about Wade are made continously by a few cruder posters. Nothing happened. Not talking about his websites here -- this is using demeaning terms to refer to sexual orientation.

The rules need to be defined and there needs to be consistency. I HATE the personal attacks -- hate 'em when I do them! But, I don't know what else to do other than to ignore those that consistently ridicule. I think we all probably have our own "sacred" beliefs and each one of us can be set off by different things. No one else here apparently cares that women are called douches, cunts, and sluts on a routine basis. I do. I take the posters on that use these terms. If it becomes too much for me I just walk away. "Retarded" is used a lot -- again I take on the posters (and quite frankly deal with this A LOT through PM which seems to be effective) and explain why I would prefer they not use the term. I was hot that Don has insinuated there is such a thing as "smart" and "stupid" posters on this board. I mentioned it. I'm ugly at times -- and don't mind being called out on it.

I have sent PMs to Shades when I saw a poster being attacked in a very personal way and I was told that it was allowed as long as the thread was not created for a personal attack. Of course there are threads in this forum that are created specifically for that purpose that still stay here. If I do not like the attack I pop in and let my sentiments be known. Most of this community doesn't say a damn word then whines when moderators don't make the board what they want it to be!

Do I have sensibilities? Sure I do! We all do. It's just where does it end? What may be offensive to Charity is going to be waaaaaay different than what pushes my buttons. So if there's something I don't like I walk away or take it on.

About the derails -- PM a mod and ask them to split comments. The OP can do so.

We create this board -- we do!

I vote for an ignore button, as well.

Post by **_Ren** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:31 pm

beastie wrote:Before any sort of action like more restrictive rules and consequences for violation of those rules be put in place, once again, I suggest a simple action that requires NO additional rules or moderator actions - the ignore button.

Actually - yes! This is a very good point. I totally agree.
If we are going to try anything 'extra', we should take small steps and see how we go. Yeah - if the decision is made to try 'anything' - it would be worth seeing how something like an ignore feature worked out before doing anything else...

Post by **_Ren** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:40 pm

Mon,
Sending PM's to mods means lots of work for mods.
Too much work for mods means it doesn't all get done. (In my opinion, looking at how it practically works out).

But anyway - I agree with beastie. Assuming that it's decided that anything should change, it'd be sensible to try an ignore feature before more 'drastic measures'...

EDIT: I'd also mention that this is the only board I have ever been on (EVER, anywhere) where the mods have no power at all to penalise people for breaking forum rules.
I don't think most of these other boards consider themselves 'draconian'. At all...

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
EDIT: I'd also mentioned that this is the only board I have ever been on (EVER, anywhere) where the mods have no power at all to penalise people.
I don't think most of these other boards consider themselves 'draconian'. At all...

Shades and Keene are board administrators. They do have the admin rights to ban, if they choose to. Bond and I do not have those same administrative rights.

Moniker wrote:I see no other way to leave it a free speech board. The penalties that Ren suggested strike me as a big pain in the ass. It would be subjective and the Mods would have to spend time making all happy -- impossible. Make yourselves happy. If you need a break -- take it. If you don't enjoy a thread -- start a new one. If you don't like what is being said -- don't look. If you have an issue -- take it on. If the thread is being derailed PM a mod and ask them to split it. I do that all the time. There are some threads I just don't click on because of who started them -- I know what I'll find.

It's fairly simple. Control your own behavior. If someone does something you have an issue with take it on with that person, or not - yet, don't blame the board for your own behavior -- essentially how you respond is UP TO YOU. I get riled more than I'd like to. I walk away or engage -- essentially it's up to me! I have issues with what is said here -- OFTEN -- how I respond is not left up to the other board participants.

I would like to give a big AMEN to this!

We are adults here, people. I already have three kids. I don't need anymore. This is an adult forum. We need to act like grown-ups.