I wore a burka today.

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_antishock8
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _antishock8 »

Sister Mary Lisa wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Sister Lisa,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think I was feelig a little exasperated with Hally, or more directly, with her mindset. I think you helped clarify what it was, exactly, that she was feeling and trying to communicate. I have two daughters, and I'm doing the single dad thing. This isn't an attempt at a pat on the back, because I don't really care about that, but my point is that raising daughters to be on equal ground in their minds with men is a challenge when adult women all around them seem to be constantly settling and constantly subordinating themselves to men and half their own gender. They have a Mormon mother in Utah doing the Mormon mother thing, which is already a s****y example, in my opinion, for what I want to accomplish. They have the Mormon culture thing that you talk about (Richard Packham just posted a touching obit to his sister who took her life, a result of years of feeling worthless within Mormondom). They have the Southern thing. The gender thing. Then they have the global Patriarchy thing. Etc...

And this is coming from a dude who, by far, does not consider himself, at all, to be a "Social Progressive" (Go McCain/Palin!). I value the concept of equality, liberty, freedom, and the architecture that our system created that allows all people, if they so choose, to flourish and prosper. So with that... Perhaps you can sense my disappoint at the sentiments expressed by Hally (now understood better).

V/R
AS8

A woman can be on equal ground with men in her own mind, as you say, yet would you still say she really IS on equal ground in reality?


No. That's my point. I don't think women are regarded as equals by males. If that were the case they could do anything a man could do, but as it is they're restricted to subordinate roles. Take for example combat roles within the military... Women just aren't allowed to fulfill them. There is an institutional bias. Women are just as capable, generally speaking, to fulfill physically and psychologically demanding roles in our society. I'm not sure why men are so threatened by that, other than being taught that through religious and cultural institutions...

That being said, I think women, as a result, generally feel subordinate to men. I see it in Stay-at-Home moms. I see it in the women I work with. I see it in churches. I see it when I ask women if they would ever vote for a woman as President. Women just don't trust themselves, they don't trust other women, and they certainly don't feel like they're as good as men in a variety of roles. That, no doubt, is BS... But that's what I see. Sorry if that pisses you off, but I don't give a crap. That's what I see, that's what I'm told, and that's the ground truth. If weren't, the world would be a very different place.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_The Nehor
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _The Nehor »

Equality wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
It's a guess based on the knowledge that it takes spiritual power and insight to discern the symbols of the Temple. Someone against the leadership of the Church and imputing flaws like this to the Gospel is unlikely to have this insight. I find it to be an informed guess.

(1) Yes, and it gives preference to women in other matters
(2) No, I have never been taught that men have some license from God to overrule their wife in family decisions. In fact I was told the opposite. I was told to continue to pray to God until you both agree on a course of action. I have heard stories of men going to their leaders and asking them to explain to their wives that she has to obey him. These stories were always told to explain that what the man did was WRONG and an abuse of the role of husband.
(3) Bollocks. The commandments for modesty and the Law of Chastity apply to both males and females.
(4) Yes, but the same injunction is placed on men with more emphasis on feeding and clothing the children as opposed to giving birth.


Wow, Nehor, you would make a good Muslim. Pulling out the old "spiritual power and insight" card, eh? That's sort of a dead end, no? Let me see if I (in my darkness and spiritually weak position) can understand what you are saying? You have spiritual power and insight and I don't. And you have arrived at this conclusion based solely on the fact that I disagree with you? Interesting. Again, it is amusing to me how religious zealots all seem to use the same playbook. Just recently, I was told that I couldn't understand all the silly rules and social arrangements in Islam because either Satan or Allah was darkening my mind. The old "if someone disagrees with my absurd propositions, it's because they are just not as spiritually in tune as I am" argument really isn't a rational one, but it is, I admit, about as hard to refute as the last refuge of the apologist--the old "God did it in a miraculous, mysterious way that we can't understand through our physical senses and just have to take on faith" assertion.


Nope, I don't have the "spiritual power and insight" to have figured it out either. I am arrogant enough to believe that if I (who am trying to live the Gospel) don't have this power then you probably don't either. Feel free to correct me on this point in the Telestial forum if you think I'm wrong. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me. It has everything to do with you finding evil in good.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _The Nehor »

Sister Mary Lisa wrote:
The Nehor wrote:I agree. I also find it shocking that you can go to Church to hear the word of the Lord and spend the whole time looking for anything that sets off a sexism alert. Of course you find it. So does the person endlessly looking for racism everywhere. Then you start talking superficially about godhood (like virtually everyone here) as if you understand it at all. Then you demean Christ for not being a woman so you can have another role model? I don't think anyone who thinks this way understands the atonement. If you don't get the atonement at all you shouldn't be prattling about becoming a deity. You have to meet God (Father and Mother) before you can have an inkling of what it means to become like them.


I'd love that. Except that the guys who created your church found it not worth their time to create for us the life and name of Heavenly Mother and share with us her equal power and her equal wisdom and her equal divine godess-like attributes that half the population of the church should strive for, seeing that gender is so darned important in the roles we are to play.

And I don't have to look for the sexism to find it. It's so all-encompassing as to be laughable. Imagine stepping foot in a congregation where only females presided in the front and only females were recognized as wielding the power to act in Goddess' name, and only females were allowed to bless children and only females were able to hold positions of power within the church. I bet even you would find the sexism of that scenario pretty easily, should you encounter such.


I don't think I would find it sexist. The only thing keeping women from having the Priesthood is a revelation to that effect. In addition, it is quite possible that men could have the Priesthood taken from them as a gender. Such a revelation wouldn't shake my faith at all. I created the mental picture you prescribed. I don't see it as sexist at all. Just different. In some ways better. Admittedly I don't think men will ever lose the right to the Priesthood though I suspect the day will come when women will get it. I don't fear that day at all.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _The Nehor »

Equality wrote:
The Nehor wrote:If you don't get the atonement at all you shouldn't be prattling about becoming a deity.


Is that why Gordon Hinckley refused to prattle about becoming a deity? Because he didn't get the atonement?

The Nehor wrote:You have to meet God (Father and Mother) before you can have an inkling of what it means to become like them.


Like this guy? He's met both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Do you follow him? If not, I suppose it's only because you are not spiritually powerful and enlightened enough to see the truth of his message. Fools mock! But they shall mourn.
http://www.thesongofgod.com/about%20azrael.html


No, President Hinckley refused to prattle because he'd be prattling to those who don't understand the atonement.

Looked over the guy's site. Seems like a nice guy. Some good thoughts. No spiritual confirmation though. Thanks for the link though.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Sister Mary Lisa
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Sister Mary Lisa »

The Nehor wrote:
Sister Mary Lisa wrote:I'd love that. Except that the guys who created your church found it not worth their time to create for us the life and name of Heavenly Mother and share with us her equal power and her equal wisdom and her equal divine godess-like attributes that half the population of the church should strive for, seeing that gender is so darned important in the roles we are to play.

And I don't have to look for the sexism to find it. It's so all-encompassing as to be laughable. Imagine stepping foot in a congregation where only females presided in the front and only females were recognized as wielding the power to act in Goddess' name, and only females were allowed to bless children and only females were able to hold positions of power within the church. I bet even you would find the sexism of that scenario pretty easily, should you encounter such.


I don't think I would find it sexist. The only thing keeping women from having the Priesthood is a revelation to that effect. In addition, it is quite possible that men could have the Priesthood taken from them as a gender. Such a revelation wouldn't shake my faith at all. I created the mental picture you prescribed. I don't see it as sexist at all. Just different. In some ways better. Admittedly I don't think men will ever lose the right to the Priesthood though I suspect the day will come when women will get it. I don't fear that day at all.

I find it interesting that you say you don't think you'd find the church I described as sexist, because it IS sexist. Both the LDS church and the church I described are sexist and, in my opinion, morally wrong. Of course, the church is free to do whatever it wants, and set up its practices however it wants. I just choose not to support such a sexist organization, no more than I'd support a corporation that only allows males to be in the upper management, regardless of the highly qualified women who work there but are denied management positions simply because they have a uterus.
_Sister Mary Lisa
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Sister Mary Lisa »

antishock8 wrote:No. That's my point. I don't think women are regarded as equals by males. If that were the case they could do anything a man could do, but as it is they're restricted to subordinate roles. Take for example combat roles within the military... Women just aren't allowed to fulfill them. There is an institutional bias. Women are just as capable, generally speaking, to fulfill physically and psychologically demanding roles in our society. I'm not sure why men are so threatened by that, other than being taught that through religious and cultural institutions...

That being said, I think women, as a result, generally feel subordinate to men. I see it in Stay-at-Home moms. I see it in the women I work with. I see it in churches. I see it when I ask women if they would ever vote for a woman as President. Women just don't trust themselves, they don't trust other women, and they certainly don't feel like they're as good as men in a variety of roles. That, no doubt, is b***s***... But that's what I see. Sorry if that pisses you off, but I don't give a s***. That's what I see, that's what I'm told, and that's the ground truth. If weren't, the world would be a very different place.

You are not pissing me off. I'm enjoying this conversation with you. I also have daughters and fear for them as I see them internalize society's messages about women and their worth. I admire that you are worried for your girls in the same way, and do feel that part of the battle is training girls not to assume a lesser status in their own minds, as you suggested. Training them that they ARE of worth, and helping them see that they should NOT feel obliged to take crap from men or from society or from their peers is not easy. Training them that they can reach for and obtain whatever their dreams are is tricky, because we both know that often life is not always set up to make this easy for girls.

Boys are often treated with deference and it is taken for granted that they can choose what they want for their lives and doors are automatically opened for them. It's not the same for girls, who must fight assumptions and perceptions and often have to deal with being visually appraised for their sexual potential before their qualifications and brainpower are ever noticed or considered. It is demoralizing and difficult to fight. Boys are treated as if they matter from the time they are young, more than girls are, in both subtle and obvious ways. For example, my son plays on a private traveling soccer league, and I see so many of them with younger sisters who love to play soccer and are very talented at it, yet who are limited to play in the cheap city recreational league so the parents can promote their son to play, because she's just a girl and it's a lot of money and travel time and commitment...

I was sitting in my office (I manage the office of a company run by four brothers) a few weeks ago, and one asked me what I was doing over the weekend. I said, "I'm probably going to draw."

He said, "Texas hold 'em?"

I laughed and told him no, I was drawing a portrait, although I'd probably make more money if I played poker instead.

His reply was, "You should go play where I play. Just wear a tight t-shirt and tight jeans, and those guys I play with would totally let you win."

My eyebrows shot up and I said, "Wow, Dave. As if I couldn't win unless the men LET me win...as if I'd have to look super sexy first...and as if I couldn't walk in and win UNDER MY OWN BRAINPOWER, huh? Niiiice." He just sat there blinking like he was astounded I'd see anything wrong with what he had said. Good god. Can you imagine anyone feeling it was OK to comment to a man that he could totally do something successfully if he'd dress sexy for it and the women may let him succeed. *eye rolls*

So yeah, my questions to you aren't me debating with you, I am discussing the same side of this issue, one concerned parent to the other.
_Sister Mary Lisa
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Sister Mary Lisa »

Jersey Girl wrote:Sister Mary Lisa,

When I hear my daughter later that day telling her brother he’s lucky to be a boy, I cry.


You raise a HUGE issue here. Who are your female role models in Mormon's history and in contemporary times?

Jersey Girl

Hmmm. My favorite female role model is my mother, who was raised Mormon in Utah and who married my Mormon dad straight out of high school, and who had 8 kids while laboring under the very unrighteous dominion I've been accused of being too hung-up on. She's amazing to me because she somehow held onto her sense of self-worth and her sanity, when she had zero support from her priesthood wielding husband who was revered at church and who was not supportive or kind to her at all. She also endured a lot of suffering as he was verbally and emotionally abusive to her and verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive to his kids. She finally left him after more than 24 years of marriage, and she wasn't exactly supported in her decision by her peers at church or her church leaders either. Sad, really, because what she did saved us. And she did it without help and with a helluva lot of censure from those who should have been the most support to her.

Not too many scriptural role models who are female, but Ruth was always my fave growing up. Submissive, gentle, pleasing, selfless, giving of herself, never complained, took care of her aging mother-in-law and gave up a life in her own country. Perfect example of what a woman should be, no? Ha.

Are you familiar with Wry Catcher in the DAMU? She is a role model to me as well, in many ways. She is an amazing woman and I value her perspective and her courage constantly. I have others I admire as well for similar reasons.
_ludwigm
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _ludwigm »

Please don't attack the burka ! Even it is not true, it may be very useful. (BKP paraphrased)

Excerpts from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 426139.ece
A woman pretending to be pregnant walks up to a hospital in one of Iraq’s most dangerous regions and blows herself up.
...
Women are the perfect weapon in a country where it is frowned upon culturally for a man even to approach a woman without her husband or father in tow, let alone frisk her for weapons at one of the many checkpoints that are the bombers’ favourite targets. In addition, it is easy to hide a vest packed with explosives under the traditional Islamic robes worn by women in Iraq without drawing suspicion.


by the way, the title of the article is
"Love, blackmail and rape – how al-Qaeda grooms women as ‘perfect weapons’"
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_antishock8
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _antishock8 »

Sister Mary Lisa wrote:You are not pissing me off. I'm enjoying this conversation with you. I also have daughters and fear for them as I see them internalize society's messages about women and their worth. I admire that you are worried for your girls in the same way, and do feel that part of the battle is training girls not to assume a lesser status in their own minds, as you suggested... So yeah, my questions to you aren't me debating with you, I am discussing the same side of this issue, one concerned parent to the other.


Cool cool. You've brought some really good insights to this thread...
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_harmony
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _harmony »

I was not born in the LDS church, but I was born in the 50's. I grew up with June Cleaver as a role model (for housekeeping, she wore a nice dress, perfect hair, and high heels and nylons). My mom encouraged me to study Office Administration in college because being a secretary was all she'd ever wanted to be. (nevermind that I wasn't at all good at it.) My dad was the head of our home. Everything we were doing stopped when he walked in the door at night no matter what it was or how important it was, and we immediately sat down to dinner.

That's the way it was. That's not the way it is now, in the vast majority of homes in this country, because of the bravery of many many women who were fed up with June Cleaver. However, the LDS church, once again, is lagging, seriously lagging, behind the rest of society. They're holding fast to June Cleaver and the 50's. Hopefully... and I cling to this hope every day... hopefully a new generation of leaders will bring the LDS church into the 21st century... soon.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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