Why is it that you’re here, MG?

[Shulem]

What finally flipped you?

What will finally flip you?

[Gadianton]

I'm not sure there was a nail in the coffin, it was a lot of things adding up. I didn't walk out in a huff one day. I quit going for a while, I was going to try to find a ward I liked, and then just continued to quit going and never went back. Interestingly, Joseph Smith history and all that wasn't any part of it and the juicy stuff I didn't know about until years later. My disbelief was centered on disbelief in God in general, and I considered Mormonism one of the better churches even if it wasn't true. I was quite defensive of Mormonism for a long time. I still am to a point, I really can't stand evangelical Christianity for the most part. I think my prejudices have been well justified considering where the country is at right now. Over time, the credibility of the Church as "one of the better ones" has deteriorated substantially. I wish it weren't the case; doesn't affect me, but it affects family quite a bit.

[MG 2.0]

I'm not sure there was a nail in the coffin, it was a lot of things adding up. I didn't walk out in a huff one day. I quit going for a while, and then just continued to quit going and never went back. Interestingly, Joseph Smith history and all that wasn't any part of it and the juicy stuff I didn't know about until years later. My disbelief was centered on disbelief in God in general, and I considered Mormonism one of the better churches even if it wasn't true. I was quite defensive of Mormonism for a long time. I still am to a point, I really can't stand evangelical Christianity for the most part. I think my prejudices have been well justified considering where the country is at right now. Over time, the credibility of the Church as "one of the better ones" has deteriorated substantially. I wish it weren't the case; doesn't affect me, but it affects family quite a bit.

I hope you believe me when I say that I have no ulterior motive in asking this rather simple request.

What were the top three, four or five things that led you to a disbelief in God?

Sidenote...I'm with you on evangelical Christianity. A lot of well meaning and Christlike/loving people...but some doctrinal positions that I would really struggle with if I'd been raised as an Evangelical.

Or would I? Bloom where you're planted and all that.

Also, years ago during my faith crisis period it was God that I came to distrust and have little confidence in. The church came a close second. Interestingly it was God that brought me back into what I would consider to be an 'even keel' of belief. Mormonism then fell in line.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Like I've said, even if you have an ulterior motive, I don't care. If you can set me up in an elaborate trap and get me on something, I would ultimately think that's pretty cool.

The absurdity of the plan of salvation; it has more holes than swiss cheese. Granted that's Mormon specific God, not God in general. But "heaven and hell" is even dumber. Afterlife and resurrection. The idea of living forever is just absurd, I'm sorry. Although, God and immortality are two separate questions. There could be a God but no afterlife. The absurdity of the Old Testament and in general the credibility of the Bible as the foundational religious text. Granted, the Bible is a fascinating puzzle in many ways, but so is caveman art; I can appreciate caveman art without having to believe it's the pure mirror of reality to guide humanity. Then again, one can believe in God without believing in the Bible. The problem of evil. This is exasperated when I try to be a good naturalist and study paleontology; the brutality of life becomes too much for me and I have to quit thinking about it. The general lack of insight into the world from religion vs. other sources. Not to say there haven't been brilliant religious thinkers, philosophy wasn't that interesting to me until I read Descartes and that guy was a fanatic. Descartes showed just how deeply you could think about the kinds of things I was interested in -- what is knowledge and so on. How do I know if something is true? As a Mormon, one has a higher than average chance at becoming obsessed with epistemology. I mean, Descartes goes well beyond what any Mormon thinker could ever hope to accomplish in terms of abstract thought, and so by that point, what did the Church have to offer? But ultimately -- the secular thinkers carry the day with all the good stuff and religious philosophers try to tack their stuff on to it. There are moments of creativity and reversals, Plantinga scored a couple good points, but, that was opportunistic, the essential framework came from David Lewis. Well, one day maybe somebody will come up with something and I'll change my mind, but so far not looking good.

[Limnor]

Ain’t gonna lie I laughed at caveman art.

Does the security of having eternal life, today and not in respect to heaven and hell and an afterlife, have value in a philosophical way?

It’s funny, and maybe a poor example, but sometimes I think of how the effect of essentially living forever had on Bill Murray’s character in Groundhog Day.

Granted that kind of thinking doesn’t have to be limited to biblical thought or theology, but I’ll tell you the sense of peace I had after discussing the powerlessness Abraham had over his life was incredible.

You don’t get these kind of deep discussions with pushback at the Calvary Church worship services.

[I Have Questions]

Also, years ago during my faith crisis period it was God that I came to distrust and have little confidence in. The church came a close second.

What a remarkably honest comment. I mean that you trusted the institution of the SLC LDS Church more than you trusted God - the deity that the SLC LDS Church is supposedly run by God. You seem umbilically attached to the Church more so than to your Creator and Saviour. It’s as if your usual premise of “I chose to believe there was a God and therefore the SLC LDS Church was the best manifestation” is actually hiding the real truth of the matter - that you believe in God as a byproduct of your inextricable tie to the SLC LDS institution. A fascinating peak behind the MG curtain.

[I Have Questions]

Like I've said, even if you have an ulterior motive, I don't care. If you can set me up in an elaborate trap and get me on something, I would ultimately think that's pretty cool.

The absurdity of the plan of salvation; it has more holes than swiss cheese. Granted that's Mormon specific God, not God in general. But "heaven and hell" is even dumber. Afterlife and resurrection. The idea of living forever is just absurd, I'm sorry.

The atoms from which you are constructed live “forever”. They existed before you were formed, they will exist long after your earthly consciousness has ceased. If your father was a different person, would your mother still have given birth to “you”? I find it hard to wrap my head around these kinds of thoughts and ideas.

The notion of an eternal afterlife as Mormonism describes it, makes no sense. The idea of Joseph Smith scurrying around doing LDS “work” in the afterlife - where time is eternal and infinite, is just silly. Because on an infinite basis, it doesn’t matter “when” Joseph does that “work”. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow are one amorphous continuum in which deadlines and urgency don’t exist.

I do understand the comfort one can draw from a belief that loved ones aren’t truly gone, that you will meet them again, and that death isn’t really the end. But sadly most religions go so far beyond providing just that comfort with lists of dos and don’ts that are really just power mechanisms that they spoil it.

[MG 2.0]

Like I've said, even if you have an ulterior motive, I don't care. If you can set me up in an elaborate trap and get me on something, I would ultimately think that's pretty cool.

The absurdity of the plan of salvation; it has more holes than swiss cheese. Granted that's Mormon specific God, not God in general. But "heaven and hell" is even dumber. Afterlife and resurrection. The idea of living forever is just absurd, I'm sorry. Although, God and immortality are two separate questions. There could be a God but no afterlife. The absurdity of the Old Testament and in general the credibility of the Bible as the foundational religious text. Granted, the Bible is a fascinating puzzle in many ways, but so is caveman art; I can appreciate caveman art without having to believe it's the pure mirror of reality to guide humanity. Then again, one can believe in God without believing in the Bible. The problem of evil. This is exasperated when I try to be a good naturalist and study paleontology; the brutality of life becomes too much for me and I have to quit thinking about it. The general lack of insight into the world from religion vs. other sources. Not to say there haven't been brilliant religious thinkers, philosophy wasn't that interesting to me until I read Descartes and that guy was a fanatic. Descartes showed just how deeply you could think about the kinds of things I was interested in -- what is knowledge and so on. How do I know if something is true? As a Mormon, one has a higher than average chance at becoming obsessed with epistemology. I mean, Descartes goes well beyond what any Mormon thinker could ever hope to accomplish in terms of abstract thought, and so by that point, what did the Church have to offer? But ultimately -- the secular thinkers carry the day with all the good stuff and religious philosophers try to tack their stuff on to it. There are moments of creativity and reversals, Plantinga scored a couple good points, but, that was opportunistic, the essential framework came from David Lewis. Well, one day maybe somebody will come up with something and I'll change my mind, but so far not looking good.

Thanks for sharing, gadianton. I do agree with you that whatever the 'afterlife' looks like there has been no one that has really done it justice when trying to describe it. Kind of like an ant trying to describe what's going on outside of that anthill (what's up and what's down?) Obviously they are not even close to having the wherewithal to ask relevant/pertinent questions.

Well, let's bring it up a notch to a prairie dog. They spend alot of time poking their heads out but they can only get so far in their limited intelligence/view.

How about humans?

Granted, we're much smarter than ants and prairie dogs. We have telescopes that can see the cosmos.That ought to be enough to figure out dimensions of reality and how 'we' fit into the 'big picture', right?

I think a bit of humility isn't unreasonable as we try and figure things out...especially when we consider that just like ants and prairie dogs we may not even have the ability and/or language, the wherewithal, to describe a larger and more all inclusive reality.

I also have to agree with you that it would seem as though it sounds silly to say, "I'm in a rush", when considering 'eternity'. There might be other reasons for 'another worldly' being to use that sort of language on a two way communication with someone that is an earthling living within a spatio/time constraint on reality.

This might sound kind of silly to you but I would posit that if there is a creator God then all of this discussion and the doubts that can play tag-a-long with it are more or less superfluous to the fact that 'it is what it is'.

Ants, prairie dogs, spirit beings, resurrected beings, dimensions, and all...or whatever. We have a fairly high confidence level defining ants and prairie dogs.

What matters, or what would matter, is what part we do or don't play in the "it". The question is whether or not the "it" includes continuing as a sentient being after we die.

I feel comfortable taking that gamble. Knowing that my view is extremely limited. Of course, there is always the possibility that you're right and all there is, is what you see right in front of your face and out some light years further.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Reality is big, we’re small, so nothing specific really needs to be answered.

Also prairie dogs.

[Shulem]

The troll is trolling.

A total waste of time.