Plutarch wrote:I will say here that I don't think there is any support for MS's claim. I will apologize if I am wrong. But so far he has just ignored me.
Believe me, Plutarch, I am going to hold you to your claim. I'll be waiting, very patiently, for that apology.
My request for a cite was directed to MS. He said that Clark had urged public disclosure as a means of keeping things honest. I am looking for that cite.
P
I already gave it, P. Go back and read the bottom of page 3 in this thread. Liz is totally right: you toss out your baloney without first checking the facts.
I see it now. I will go check it out directly. I hadn't heard this before.
I don't believe everything Quinn says, having run to ground some of his prior footnotes for material I have published or researched. But, few writers of his volume could withstand scrutiny on every footnote. But, I will look for this one.
The social caste system that I've noticed in Mormonism is that the family with the biggest, nicest house usually ends up hosting the most off-site ward activities.
"Kill all the lawyers!" - Walmart. Shakespeare
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Randall wrote:The social caste system that I've noticed in Mormonism is that the family with the biggest, nicest house usually ends up hosting the most off-site ward activities.
That's because more often than not, he's the bishop.
Randall wrote:The social caste system that I've noticed in Mormonism is that the family with the biggest, nicest house usually ends up hosting the most off-site ward activities.
That's because more often than not, he's the bishop.
In our ward, this is the house that has adequate space for the activities. This is something based on functionality, and no extra status is accorded for this, other than the appreciation of many.
Following this excrumentally explicit temper tantrum I am reminded of my own state of mind while locked in the cult. All I remember is thinking that the damn exmormons are out to get us all and all they do is lie. Then, following a thorough and critical examination of the claims shades and Nort make I made the leap out of the cult and into a rational approach towards life.
This secret cabal you speak of is true. We all get together, say the articles of faith backwards and have wild a$$ f****** parties while in our old temple clothes.
Your black-and-white aproach to Mormon opposition camps is unsurprising and it is illuminating on just how little you know about what is out there countering your small marginalised worldview.
Loran:
No further quoting is necessary. I really, really don't know who you think your're fooling, how early you believe you have to get up in the moring to do it, and what quantities of psychotropic compounds are necessary to cauterize your conscience after each episode with these utterly hysterical screeds you keep posting. Nobody...nobody who actually knows faithful, practicing Mormons is ever going to believe you Vegas, and many of them are going to walk away from you with the terms liar, bigot, and ass running through their minds from the encounter.
that's funny, everyone...and I mean EVERYONE I talk to that hbas dealt even a LITTLE with Mormons agrees with me on how I percieve MormonCorp.
Make sure to get back to the group home before they revoke your "walking to the store" priveledges.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Pokatator wrote:So this is why Utah leads the nation in pyramid schemes, they have such a great example!
harmony wrote:Ward bishop Stake high council Stake president Mission president Area authority General authority First Presidency
They do? How do you know?
What are the equivalent levels in AMWAY?
It is ok to dislike Amway but it is not a pyramid scheme. It is a valid business that uses a multi-level marketing approach and has been found to be a valid and legal form of doing business by various court rulings. I am not an Amway apologist but I do know about its business model.
And Chiropractics still to this day call their brand of snake oil quackery medicine. Jezuss effing Christ...amway is, by definition, a pyramid scheme.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Living out in the 'mission field' I think perhaps things are slightly different. Our SP was a teacher, the patriarch a caretaker, the bishops have been accountants, blue collar workers, postmen. (and this was 20 years ago, perhaps things have changed?)
Not to say that success in education or business doesn't seem to attract the attention of the higher eschelons, I think it does. My father, on being baptized was told by the then area president, that with his expertise in management, if he played things right, he would be a bishop in no time. This had the effect on my dad of actually making him very suspicious of leadership, as it seemed that the inference was that success in business meant success in the church. He went inactive soon after and had little respect for those men whom he saw 'play' the system.
Perhaps the 'protestant work ethic' is alive and well at church with a very 'conservative' twist.
I think anyone who wants leadership for honour, prestige, gets their reward one way or another, there seems to be a 'karma' in my opinion, about these sorts of things.
I do think that loyalty to the church as an organisation (understandably) is paramount. Who can they trust? It doesn't do for too many stake president's, bishops, or even mission presidents, to be going inactive, committing excommunicable offences or apostatising. It doesn't send a good message to those further away from the leadership core.
As I say I don't know that I notice the caste system in my country, but perhaps it rears its head on the marriage front somewhat. I have had personal experience of this. As a single young adult with inactive and non-member family, I wasn't considered of the right stock to be marrying into the stake presidents family for instance. A blessing in disguise in retrospect but pretty hurtful at the time. Nepotism is also alive and very well in the corridors of the church. I know this also from first hand experience. My setting apart after my mission was pretty normal, but the SP's other son, whom he blessed at the same time, had a blessing full of promise, celestial glory, and so on and so forth. That was his son after all. Interestingly I lasted a good 10 years longer in activity than his son, who went inactive as fast as you can say boo to a goose. All the SP's children seemed to know that the system could be played. One became a bishop and 'knew' that he would be released as soon as his father left to become a MP. (He was). Another knew she would be excommunicated as soon as her father was not SP any more. (she was) Much to the upset of the mother.
One thing I have learned from my life outside church, is really and I mean really...for the most part people in the church are NO better than those out of it. Sad but true. Infact as one of my neighbours who works tirelessly for various charity's shows me, as an agnostic, she does good works, soley for the joy of doing them, not for desire of reward or honour. This is a much more authentic way to go in my opinion.
Because there is no real difference in the moral standards of those in and those out of the church, we are ALL human afterall, it always grieves me when I see active members differenciate between the standards of the world and those of the church. This was really not my experience on any level internally, or externally. (and I would rather not go into detail, but I could list a whole host of events that indicate this was so) The only thing that differenciates Mormons from non-mormons is that they believe in the specifics of the Joseph Smith story, though of course, the commitment to 'trying' to be better people is a wonderful one, though again, many non-mormons share this same goal.