My dillema - Raising my daughter correctly

[_Ray A]

Your missing the point yet again ray. Would you give a 4 year old mein kampf or Dianetics essons and then expect them to discern bulshit from reality? No wiggling out of this question. Yes or no?

If you want a straight up answer: No.

Here's my qualification (if you want to read it): Any four year old who can read Mein Kampf would have to be a Mozart-like genius. Any four year old who can discern these complex issues about Mormonism would have to be eventually a candidate for Mensa.

I respect your right to not want your daughter be brought up in Mormonism, especially because of how it has affected you. If your wife was not still a practising Mormon there would be no problem. We would not even be having this discussion. In an earlier post you wrote this:

Its a personality cult. A danger? Yes, to your mental stability. They will not threaten your life but will threaten your family with separation, pound you with guilt and force your friends and peers to see you through the eyes of group judgement over stupid assinine trivialities.

The larger issue here is, I think, that your wife and the church are not respecting your feelings. You have no say. Yet you don't want to lose your family. This makes you angry. Why should you have to lose your family over this, you may be asking. Again you're seeing the pressure of the church, and your feelings relegated to nothing. You're "only an apostate".

You have two choices. To continue to feel angst for your daughter, and anger that you have no say, and have real fears about her indoctrination, and your marital situation could become worse. Your wife will feel these tensions, and if you become too forceful she could do something drastic.

Or, you can forget worrying, and allow your daughter to continue going to church, have more harmony in your marriage, and hope that your daughter, when she is older, will hear your views and make her own decisions. Adding to this angst you feel is that someone else will be baptising your daughter. This will naturally upset you, I presume, even if you don't believe Mormonism. This would have to hurt any father, because he's on the "outer", and she's not being brought up the way you want. But if you force the situation, the result could be worse, something like destroying a village in order to save it.

What is your alternative? Tell your wife your daughter is not going to be baptised? Create real division which could lead to more serious consequences for your marriage? Here is my own intuitive advice from my own experience: Let them have their way. Things will work themselves out in the end. Stop worrying. Don't let your daughter be exposed to your anger at Mormonism, because that is likely, when she gets older, to turn her away from you. If you are temperate, and continue to show love to your daughter and your wife, they will listen to you more. Let them know you respect their rights and their choices, and you will gain their trust and respect. Then, and only then, will they listen to what you have to say.

[_desert_vulture]

by the way, DV, do you respect your daughter's choice of lifestyle? If it makes her happy, do you respect that?

Tough question Ray. I was convinced the whitewashed version of Mormonism was literally true until last year. She was 13 then. I had raised her using the premise that the Mormon church is the one and only true church on the face of the earth, which is demonstrably false. Therefore, based on her assumption that the false premises I taught her are literally true, she appears happy. Do I respect a child who believes in Santa? Do I respect a Raelian who believes in a UFO God? I guess one could answer "Yes" to those questions, but at the same time feel a sense of dread knowing the truth is in conflict with that person's beliefs. The fact that she is my own daughter, and relies on me for my experience and knowledge in life, only intensifies my anxiety. Do I respect her choice of lifestyle that I gave her, as a deluded believer? Hmmm... tough question indeed. A tougher question is how do I expose her to the truth about Mormonism in a painless way? I don't know the answer to that.

[_Ray A]

by the way, DV, do you respect your daughter's choice of lifestyle? If it makes her happy, do you respect that?

Tough question Ray. I was convinced the whitewashed version of Mormonism was literally true until last year. She was 13 then. I had raised her using the premise that the Mormon church is the one and only true church on the face of the earth, which is demonstrably false. Therefore, based on her assumption that the false premises I taught her are literally true, she appears happy. Do I respect a child who believes in Santa? Do I respect a Raelian who believes in a UFO God? I guess one could answer "Yes" to those questions, but at the same time feel a sense of dread knowing the truth is in conflict with that person's beliefs. The fact that she is my own daughter, and relies on me for my experience and knowledge in life, only intensifies my anxiety. Do I respect her choice of lifestyle that I gave her, as a deluded believer? Hmmm... tough question indeed. A tougher question is how do I expose her to the truth about Mormonism in a painless way? I don't know the answer to that.

DV, this is only my opinion, but I think you should square with your daughter. Tell her honestly what you've discovered, and that you now believe you were wrong. Give her the facts as you see them , and let her decide. I would explain that we are only fallible humans in search of truth, and we don't know everything. I know you're very convinced about what you now see, but she can't see your viewpoint as clearly as you do. Tell her exactly how you feel, about everything you mentioned above, and let her decide what she wants to do. Tell her she can make her own lifestyle choices, but that you feel it your duty to tell her what you've discovered. I had this problem with my own daughter, and I gave her the information I had, but asked her not to rely on my word but to examine it herself, and draw her own conclusions, and if, knowing all this, she chose to still attend church and believe in Mormonism, it would be for reasons of her own choosing, and in that knowledge I would even support her.
Be true to yourself, and to what you believe or disbelieve, but don't force your children. Honour their choices after you have fully explained YOUR choice. That is all you can do as a father. Not all Mormons continue attending because they believe it's "literal truth", many see goodness in the LDS lifestyle, and want, I repeat WANT, to live that way, regardless of doctrinal/historical problems. Let your daugher make that decision. After years of contention a missionary once told me he felt God could never condemn me. Why? Because I was being true to what I believed, based on my agency and knowledge. I would say, give the same respect to others. They are where they have to be at this time, to meet their needs. In time, your daughter may fully resonate with what you have to say. But if she doesn't, respect her life choices.
The freedom to live how we choose is sacrosanct. But not until we have been informed. Remember, in my opinion, nothing is more sacred than a person's right to choose how they shall live, or what they shall believe, as long as that choice does not break laws or lead to criminal behaviour. So speak your mind in humility, and express your honest feelings. They will have even more respect for your honesty, and if they choose otherwise, they are still your flesh and blood, and how can anyone stop loving their own flesh and blood??

In the end we're all going to die. Do you want to die knowing you coerced your children to live how YOU want, and not how they want? Regardless of how much you disapprove. I could not live with that on my conscience. If any of my children wanted to go back to Mormonism, I would tell them what I think and know, but I would honour their choice. Nothing in life is more important to me than the individual's right to choose, even if I disagree with that choice.

[_desert_vulture]

DV, this is only my opinion, but I think you should square with your daughter. Tell her honestly what you've discovered, and that you now believe you were wrong. Give her the facts as you see them , and let her decide. I would explain that we are only fallible humans in search of truth, and we don't know everything.

Thanks Ray. I appreciate the good advice. It is complicated by the fact that she has younger siblings, and we are surrounded by extended family, all of which is TBM. My my wife is not on the same page with me either. She is convinced I'm going through a trial of faith.

[_Mercury]

Your missing the point yet again ray. Would you give a 4 year old mein kampf or Dianetics essons and then expect them to discern bulshit from reality? No wiggling out of this question. Yes or no?

If you want a straight up answer: No.

Here's my qualification (if you want to read it): Any four year old who can read Mein Kampf would have to be a Mozart-like genius. Any four year old who can discern these complex issues about Mormonism would have to be eventually a candidate for Mensa.

I respect your right to not want your daughter be brought up in Mormonism, especially because of how it has affected you. If your wife was not still a practising Mormon there would be no problem. We would not even be having this discussion. In an earlier post you wrote this:

Its a personality cult. A danger? Yes, to your mental stability. They will not threaten your life but will threaten your family with separation, pound you with guilt and force your friends and peers to see you through the eyes of group judgement over stupid assinine trivialities.

The larger issue here is, I think, that your wife and the church are not respecting your feelings. You have no say. Yet you don't want to lose your family. This makes you angry. Why should you have to lose your family over this, you may be asking. Again you're seeing the pressure of the church, and your feelings relegated to nothing. You're "only an apostate".

You have two choices. To continue to feel angst for your daughter, and anger that you have no say, and have real fears about her indoctrination, and your marital situation could become worse. Your wife will feel these tensions, and if you become too forceful she could do something drastic.

Or, you can forget worrying, and allow your daughter to continue going to church, have more harmony in your marriage, and hope that your daughter, when she is older, will hear your views and make her own decisions. Adding to this angst you feel is that someone else will be baptising your daughter. This will naturally upset you, I presume, even if you don't believe Mormonism. This would have to hurt any father, because he's on the "outer", and she's not being brought up the way you want. But if you force the situation, the result could be worse, something like destroying a village in order to save it.

What is your alternative? Tell your wife your daughter is not going to be baptised? Create real division which could lead to more serious consequences for your marriage? Here is my own intuitive advice from my own experience: Let them have their way. Things will work themselves out in the end. Stop worrying. Don't let your daughter be exposed to your anger at Mormonism, because that is likely, when she gets older, to turn her away from you. If you are temperate, and continue to show love to your daughter and your wife, they will listen to you more. Let them know you respect their rights and their choices, and you will gain their trust and respect. Then, and only then, will they listen to what you have to say.

So just give up? Things have to come to a head. Drama is a natural part of life. If you spend time running from conflict then you cannot resolve anything. Your advice is simply saying "give up, its over...theres no way out but to accept defeat". that's what you are saying.

[_Yoda]

So just give up? Things have to come to a head. Drama is a natural part of life. If you spend time running from conflict then you cannot resolve anything. Your advice is simply saying "give up, its over...theres no way out but to accept defeat". that's what you are saying.

I don't think that's necessarily what Ray's saying. I think what he's getting at is that your daughter is 1 year old. We're talking about something you're concerned happening 7 years from now. A lot can happen between now and then. If you think that there is a good chance that your wife may, in time, align with your way of thinking regarding the Church, it might be best to keep things low key for now, rather than push things, causing hard feelings, and screwing up the marriage.

[_Ray A]

I don't think that's necessarily what Ray's saying. I think what he's getting at is that your daughter is 1 year old. We're talking about something you're concerned happening 7 years from now. A lot can happen between now and then. If you think that there is a good chance that your wife may, in time, align with your way of thinking regarding the Church, it might be best to keep things low key for now, rather than push things, causing hard feelings, and screwing up the marriage.

Precisely.

[_Ray A]

Thanks Ray. I appreciate the good advice. It is complicated by the fact that she has younger siblings, and we are surrounded by extended family, all of which is TBM. My my wife is not on the same page with me either. She is convinced I'm going through a trial of faith.

DV, this helps me to better understand why some exmos on the net are so passionate. You're surrounded by people who think you're just going through a personal trial, when it's much more than that. My wife's initial reaction to me was one of disbelief. It was a shock to her. Although I had been reading for about four years and passing ideas and information on to her, and my TBM belief was long gone, it was still a shock to her when I stopped going. She didn't "iinternalise" any of this until I made that drastic move. When I stopped going she continued for a few weeks, and I encouraged her to go, but she felt it would not be the same, and she stopped going eventually. The irony is that she ended up atheist in the end. But she was never a gung-ho TBM.

[_Gazelam]

Just do this, and don't worry about anything else.

Each night make it your responsibility to tuck your daughter in. Each night help her say her prayers. Teach her to pray. While doing this, follow the spirits direction as he influences you regarding your family.

Gaz

[_Jersey Girl]

To Whom It May Concern...

Look, I screwed up and made the same post twice. Get over it and read the post below!