Religion is Obsolete

[_moksha]

All religion is predicated upon the will to believe. You either choose to believe or don't. Of course sometimes you might just have nagging doubts, in which case you can become an agnostic.


Believe it or not...

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

HAHA, oh hell no. You couldn't pay me to go to BYU. I lived in BYU housing, i would never go to the school. Im actualy not in college, nor have i gone yet. (im 23 next month) Im still unsure what dirrection to take my schooling in.

Wait a minute. You lived in BYU housing, but you weren't a student? How is that possible? Is BYU housing in any way supported by tithing funds? (cleaning and maintenance, building costs, administrative costs?)

You don't have to be a BYU student to live in off campus BYU approved housing. If an apartment complex is BYU approved, it means that it has been inspected by BYU housing authority, and has been deemed appropriate for student living. They have specific cleanliness and maintenance guidelines (which, in my view, are pretty liberal), and they require a certain amount of desk space for each student, etc.

These apartment complexes are private businesses and are not supported by tithing funds.

Let's not forget that BYU approved means No members of the opposite sex after 10pm, curfew at 11, and a host of other rules and regulations. One of my current roommates got kicked out of BYU housing because we were all over there watching anime. Watchingg anime!! We actually had a curfew monitor knock on the door and kick us all out, because the girls were laughing too loudly.

Now that is funny ...laughing too loud because you were watching anime.....must of been very funny...curfew monitor.....
I am in the wrong job.....Poor Sono

[_Gazelam]

Sorry, it looked like the thread had gone in another direction, and I didn't feel like reading all that was posted. (not that it wasn't a good subject) I just skimmed across them all and saw the last post addressed to me.

I believe we left off with my asking you to describe for us your revelation and what you learned from it that was in opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think I phrased it as "Please list the articles of faith of your beliefs"

I want to establish a basis for discussing our beliefs. You know mine, please share yours, and we can build from there.

Gaz

[_Roger Morrison]

Sorry, it looked like the thread had gone in another direction, and I didn't feel like reading all that was posted. (not that it wasn't a good subject) I just skimmed across them all and saw the last post addressed to me.

I believe we left off with my asking you to describe for us your revelation and what you learned from it that was in opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think I phrased it as "Please list the articles of faith of your beliefs"

I want to establish a basis for discussing our beliefs. You know mine, please share yours, and we can build from there.

Gaz

Hi Gaz, just for you Bro:

Keene Maverick's Articles of Faith!

1.) I believe the question or discussion of whether or not God exists has no value, because there are no visible or testable results.

2.) I believe existence is fully infinite, in every possible and impossible definition of the word.

3.) I believe that all of consciousness behaves under a single law (Law in the sense of physics, like gravity, rather than in the sense of a rule you should try to obey. it's one of those laws that works whether you want it to or not.); that law is the Law of Attraction. Simply put, what you choose to be conscious of determines your reality. (for a greater understanding of this law, the two movies I introduce people two are What the Bleep do we Know? and The Secret. Clips from both can be found on Google Video and YouTube. The Secret can be purchased online in downloadable format for 4.99. I highly suggest this to everyone.)

4.) I believe all matter, energy, and consciousness, on a fundamental level, are one. Litterally. I tend to call this concept the imagination of God.

5.) I believe the reality you choose to live in is fully your own responsibility. You are responsible for your own happiness, and others are responsible for theirs.

6.) I believe in certain principles and ordinances; First, Accountability for your actions. Second, accountability for your REactions. Third, accountability for your feelings. Fourth, accountability for your thoughts. I believe all of these things (actions, reactions, feelings, thoughts), are controllable EASILY.

7.) I believe in the constant and exponential growth of the evolution of the universe, and of the self.

8.) I believe in a modified eight-circuit model of consiousness, similar to the one defined by Timothy Leary. As part of that model, I believe in the use of Entheogens to bring out each circuit, to explore the abilities of the mind and the spirit, and to bond a closer and more meaningful connection with the Imagination of God.

9.) I believe all people, with faith, dedication, and study, can perform all things, including but not limited to all the gifts of the spirit defined in all scriptures of all faiths.

10.) I believe in the universal language of sacred geometry.

11.) I believe these things have been revealed not only to me, but to all prophets of all religions, all world leaders, shamans, and many generally successful people. I believe these revelations were kept secret, for the sake utilizing their power.

12.) I believe in the power of the mind and of the imagination to reveal, feel, and know the infinite. I believe the imagination is the doorway to the Imagination of God.

13.) I believe that after death, our twisted rope of consciousness unravels, and joins the Imagination of God, bringing with it it's experiences. I believe that for a brief moment, or perhaps for all eternity, we will see and understand all experiences of all matter and energy throughout all time, before we throw ourselves back into the infinite loop, to experience it from yet another, brand new, yet infinitely old angle.

14.) For purely humorous reasons, I believe the universe runs on a Base 13 system of numerics. What is nine times five? Fourty-two. (This is particularly interesting when you begin to study the Mayan's and other old religions obsession with 13.)

15.) I believe that my beliefs may be wrong, and that they should be constantly tested, and changed to fit any and all new evidence.

It goes on and on. But those are the very basic beliefs. What I decide to do based on those beliefs, my code of ethics, goes even deeper.

These things, I feel were revealed to me by the divine infinite. During my studies, I find the hints of these beliefs in every scripture, in every success story, in every motivational tape, in every business book, and in every simple story. If consistency is what decides whether it's true, my beliefs have a much wider range of consistency across many more prophets than those in the judeo-christian faith.

Once again, though, our two beliefs are very dramatically different, and yet they were both revealed to us through Moroni's promise, and both with such a power that we "just knew" that it was a revelation, rather than just emotion. How can we verify which, if any, is correct?

Might I take a go at a possible answer, and see if you agree? If you don't, then we can begin our discussion anew.

My thought is that, since internal revelations are so dramatically different across the populous, there must be an external verifier. I would like to discount scriptures as an external verifier, simply because the prophets who wrote them also had vastly differing revelations among themselves, as I pointed out with Numbers ch. 31.

My suggestion is that the governing laws, those with testable results, would be the best possible external verifier. Gravity, thermodynamics, physics... These are universal, and work whether you believe it or not. I would think this is the best place to start from. And many of my personal beliefs have stemmed from my study into Quantum Physics, Psychology, and Biology.

Would you agree that this external verifier could help us determine which, if any, of our revelations are true? If so, then please elaborate on how your beliefs fit this data. If not, Why, and what other method would you propose we use?[/b]

From page 2, to You! Warm regards, Roger

[_Mephitus]

Now that is funny ...laughing too loud because you were watching anime.....must of been very funny...curfew monitor.....
I am in the wrong job.....Poor Sono

Yup, and that's not an exaggeration either. About 4 months ago i was evicted due to having a load of dishes in the sink for a few days. (no roommates at the time, and i got a bit lazy) I now live in my own apt by myself. Its very rewarding to be able to come home and not be assaulted by preachy, nosey roommates.

Maybe if i get access to a scanner, ill post all the rules and regs they make you agree to.

A few are the ones such as the 11pm curfew/limit on guests, no women in the bedroom, no women past the second door leading to the bedrooms, no booze, tobacco, coffee, tea, allowable random cleaning checks, monthly regular cleaning checks, no lewd material(including R movies), and more.

If any of the above are violated, the lease you must agree to says they can evict you with only 48 hour notice.

[_Roger Morrison]

Religion is obsolete So is a "Model T" Ford. A new Ford "Mustang" is simply on its way to obsolescence. The automobile has evolved, and will continue to do so>>>>

So too with Religion. Like the Old-Grey-Mare, "It ain't what it used to be." Religion is evolving amidst cheers and protests, as it ever has.

From the days of the greatest religious reformer, activist and philosopher, Jesus the carpenter, turned spiritual emancipator--who gave his life for his cause--there have been countless souls who have consistantly worked in his cause of human emancipation. Much to the resistance of those who are slower to reconcile the past in terms of its obsolescence, and would keep it in an exagerated state of glory.

Respect it deserves. Glorification it does not. Common sense, applied to the simple basics of the TEACHINGS OF Jesus, and to the christian society in which adverse and negative living conditions continue to exist, in the greater numbers of our planet's inhabitants, cannot but lead a thinking, perceptive person to conclude: Christianism has been a dismal failure! To this point in time.

From here??? A vibrant energetic force to tackle the challenges of humanity? Or, as through the ages, does it remain under the influence of those who compromise this life as one of service, as Jesus taught--while getting all they can from it--for an imagined life of 'reward' outside of mortality?

This is the challenge for all leaders, followers, believers and unbelievers alike: Admission that Jesus LIVED to deliver the "Two New Commandents"... He DIED because those "Two New Commandments" diametrically opposed, "the traditions of the fathers."

While we continue to live by the sentiment of "Old Tyme Religion being good enough for Father, so it's good enough for me," we will be living in a state of spiritual obsolescence. Thanks to the efforts of some progressive theologians, and open minded folks, "things- are-a-changing!" Praise "God"!! Warm regards, Roger

[_wenglund]

Interesting concept. If I were to think of god as a person, I would probably think the same way -- but I actually believe God to be the sum of all people, matter, energy, time, and universes. I believe we are god, and so is the world he gave us.

That will work as well. Since to you a family is "god", and a part of "God", then looking at things on a family level can help us to understand the role of God in relation to the sum of all people.

The simplest and most obvious reason I want kids is because it would feel good. Naturally speaking, we're wired to make it feel good to continue the species. My hopes with my child, on a fundamental level, is grandchildren. Obviously.

From God's perspective, I believe mankind is born to experience the infinite. I believe that if reality is infinite, then when one imagines What does infinite look like, one is forced to include the current situations and perspectives and part of that infinite reality. Simply put, we're here because we must be here by nature of the universe. To what end are we here? Whatever end you want to believe.

The purpose I have chosen is to free the minds of as many as I can, to unlock the power of consiousness to flow through the infinite freely, choosing their reality. This liberation goes much deeper than just freedom of action -- it's freedom of world, freedom of scenario, freedom above nature. I believe that if the mind is free, we may become Gods in this life, exacting the power of choice to direct ourselves to a world we want to live in -- to heaven. I don't believe in waiting for death, I think it can be reached now.

Are you aware of the paradox between freedom and choice?

Simply put. If I freely choose to travel one direction on a road, the laws of physics prevent me from simultaneously traveling the other direction on that road. In other word, while I may freely choose to move freely in one direction, that choice unavoidably limits my freedom to travel simultaneously in the other direction on that road. In fact, by choosing to travel a certain direction on a given road, one's freedom is restricted in simultaniously traveling an infinite number of directions on an infinite number of different roads. A single free choice, then, will unavoidably negate, simultaneously, an infinity of freedoms.

This paradox goes beyond the simultaneous, to also include loss of freedoms over time. The further along I freely travel down a freely chosen road, the laws of physics make it increasingly more difficult to choose to later travel in an infinite number of directions on an infinite number of roads. In other words a single free choice to continue traveling down a certain road, then, will unavoidably limit, if not negate, an infinity of future freedoms.

This paradox increases exponentially the more agents there are to make personal choices. If I freely make the same choice to travel from the same location, at the same time, and in the same direction, and whatever speed I freely desire, the same simultaneously as thousands of other people, the laws of physics may prevent that from happening. In other words, multiple people making the same personal choices may, in cases of scarcity of space and resources, limit, if not negate to some degree, each others freedom.

This paradox increases exponentially still when free choices extend beyond individuals to include what is desired from or for others. If I freely choose to have a certain desired woman travel with me in a certain direction at a certain time on a certain road, that would negate her freedom to choose otherwise, or negate my freedom were she to freely choose otherwise. If we differ in what we choose regard the other parties, that difference unavoidably negates the freedom for all parties to freely realize their choices.

And, this paradox explodes exponentionally when viewed in relation to more than just traveling a certain direction down a certain road, and when applied to all kinds of choices, including those involving beliefs, relationships, behaviors of every sort and kinds etc.

In other words, the very nature of our human existence, particularly societally, unavoidably negates an infinity of freedoms through the very act of supposed free personal and societal choices.

As this pertains to raising my child -- I hope to create an environment where freedom, curiosity, fun, and kindness are encouraged, so that my child can reach this godhood without unnecessary pain. In other words, I want to take what I was given, improve it as much as possible, and then pass it on.

But, isn't pain (including unnecessary pain) a part of the infinity that you see mankind as born to experience? Are you not, as a parent, denying your child the freedom and the experience of that part of the infinity that is unnecessary pain? (Not that I view denying the child that freedom and experience as necessarily a bad thing. In fact, according to my belief system, I think it in many ways is a good thing. I am asking to see how you reconcile it with your belief in freedom and infinity.)

If you wish to prevent your child from experiencing unnecessary pain, then why bring the child into a world where pain (often unnecessary pain) is so pervasive and virtually unavoidable? Does your motive of "feeling good" behind having the child somehow outweigh the potential pain (unnecessary or otherwise) the child may experience in consequence of YOUR choice? (Again, I am not suggesting that having children is wrong. In fact, principly speaking, and according to my belief sytem, I think it is a wonderful thing. I am simply asking to see how you recocile things according to your belief system.)

Won't it take the institution of boundries and rules to which your child and others must be subjected in order to best achieve your goal of preventing your child from experiencing unnecessary pain? And, wouldn't those boundries and rules unavoidably restrict freedom?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_keene]

Sorry, it looked like the thread had gone in another direction, and I didn't feel like reading all that was posted. (not that it wasn't a good subject) I just skimmed across them all and saw the last post addressed to me.

I believe we left off with my asking you to describe for us your revelation and what you learned from it that was in opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think I phrased it as "Please list the articles of faith of your beliefs"

I want to establish a basis for discussing our beliefs. You know mine, please share yours, and we can build from there.

Gaz

I did post my articles of faith in response to that, but allow me to post them again, and update them as necessary. Updates are italicized.

I don't know how to answer your question beyond what I have already said.

Lets build further from this point: What did you learn in your supposed revelation? Take us through your personal "theology" that stemmed from your revelations. Give us your articles of faith as it were.

LOL, that's quite a task. Usually when introducing someone to my beliefs, I sit them down, have them watch 3 or 4 movies, lecture for an hour or two, have them listen to more lectures... A simple passover of my beliefs can take a full weekend. To go into any depth usually requires either a TON of patience, or a hallucinogen. But, I'll try.

Keene Maverick's Articles of Faith!

1.) I believe the question or discussion of whether or not God exists has no value, because there are no visible or testable results.

2.) I believe existence is fully infinite, in every possible and impossible definition of the word.

3.) I believe that all of consciousness behaves under a single law (Law in the sense of physics, like gravity, rather than in the sense of a rule you should try to obey. it's one of those laws that works whether you want it to or not.); that law is the Law of Attraction. Simply put, what you choose to be conscious of determines your reality. (for a greater understanding of this law, the two movies I introduce people two are What the Bleep do we Know? and The Secret. Clips from both can be found on Google Video and YouTube. The Secret can be purchased online in downloadable format for 4.99. I highly suggest this to everyone.)

4.) I believe all matter, energy, and consciousness, on a fundamental level, are one. Literally. I tend to call this concept the imagination of God.

5.) I believe the reality you choose to live in is fully your own responsibility. You are responsible for your own happiness, and others are responsible for theirs.

6.) I believe in certain principles and ordinances; First, Accountability for your actions. Second, accountability for your REactions. Third, accountability for your feelings. Fourth, accountability for your thoughts. Fifth, accountability for your situation I believe all of these things (actions, reactions, feelings, thoughts, situation), are controllable EASILY.

7.) I believe in the constant and exponential growth of the evolution of the universe, and of the self.

8.) I believe in a modified eight-circuit model of consciousness, similar to the one defined by Timothy Leary. As part of that model, I believe in the use of Entheogens to bring out each circuit, to explore the abilities of the mind and the spirit, and to bond a closer and more meaningful connection with the Imagination of God.

9.) I believe all people, with faith, dedication, and study, can perform all things, including but not limited to all the gifts of the spirit defined in all scriptures of all faiths.

10.) I believe in the universal language of sacred geometry.

11.) I believe these things have been revealed not only to me, but to all prophets of all religions, all world leaders, shamans, and many generally successful people in varying degrees. I believe these revelations were kept secret, for the sake utilizing their power. Or, because the part about individual accountability and responsibility makes it undesirable to teach those who do not actively seek to learn.

12.) I believe in the power of the mind and of the imagination to reveal, feel, and know the infinite. I believe the imagination is the doorway to the Imagination of God.

13.) I believe that after death, our twisted rope of consciousness unravels, and joins the Imagination of God, bringing with it it's experiences. I believe that for a brief moment, or perhaps for all eternity, we will see and understand all experiences of all matter and energy throughout all time, before we throw ourselves back into the infinite loop, to experience it from yet another, brand new, yet infinitely old angle.

14.) For purely humorous reasons, I believe the universe runs on a Base 13 system of numerics. What is nine times five? Fourty-two. (This is particularly interesting when you begin to study the Mayan's and other old religions obsession with 13.)

15.) I believe that my beliefs may be wrong, and that they should be constantly tested, and changed to fit any and all new evidence.

It goes on and on. But those are the very basic beliefs. What I decide to do based on those beliefs, my code of ethics, goes even deeper.

These things, I feel were revealed to me by the divine infinite. During my studies, I find the hints of these beliefs in every scripture, in every success story, in every motivational tape, in every business book, and in every simple story. If consistency is what decides whether it's true, my beliefs have a much wider range of consistency across many more prophets than those in the judeo-christian faith.

Once again, though, our two beliefs are very dramatically different, and yet they were both revealed to us through Moroni's promise, and both with such a power that we "just knew" that it was a revelation, rather than just emotion. How can we verify which, if any, is correct?

Might I take a go at a possible answer, and see if you agree? If you don't, then we can begin our discussion anew.

My thought is that, since internal revelations are so dramatically different across the populous, there must be an external verifier. I would like to discount scriptures as an external verifier, simply because the prophets who wrote them also had vastly differing revelations among themselves, as I pointed out with Numbers ch. 31.

My suggestion is that the governing laws, those with testable results, would be the best possible external verifier. Gravity, thermodynamics, physics... These are universal, and work whether you believe it or not. I would think this is the best place to start from. And many of my personal beliefs have stemmed from my study into Quantum Physics, Psychology, and Biology.

Would you agree that this external verifier could help us determine which, if any, of our revelations are true? If so, then please elaborate on how your beliefs fit this data. If not, Why, and what other method would you propose we use?[/b]

[_harmony]

Religion is obsolete So is a "Model T" Ford. A new Ford "Mustang" is simply on its way to obsolescence. The automobile has evolved, and will continue to do so>>>>

So too with Religion. Like the Old-Grey-Mare, "It ain't what it used to be." Religion is evolving amidst cheers and protests, as it ever has.

From the days of the greatest religious reformer, activist and philosopher, Jesus the carpenter, turned spiritual emancipator--who gave his life for his cause--there have been countless souls who have consistantly worked in his cause of human emancipation. Much to the resistance of those who are slower to reconcile the past in terms of its obsolescence, and would keep it in an exagerated state of glory.

Respect it deserves. Glorification it does not. Common sense, applied to the simple basics of the TEACHINGS OF Jesus, and to the christian society in which adverse and negative living conditions continue to exist, in the greater numbers of our planet's inhabitants, cannot but lead a thinking, perceptive person to conclude: Christianism has been a dismal failure! To this point in time.

From here??? A vibrant energetic force to tackle the challenges of humanity? Or, as through the ages, does it remain under the influence of those who compromise this life as one of service, as Jesus taught--while getting all they can from it--for an imagined life of 'reward' outside of mortality?

This is the challenge for all leaders, followers, believers and unbelievers alike: Admission that Jesus LIVED to deliver the "Two New Commandents"... He DIED because those "Two New Commandments" diametrically opposed, "the traditions of the fathers."

While we continue to live by the sentiment of "Old Tyme Religion being good enough for Father, so it's good enough for me," we will be living in a state of spiritual obsolescence. Thanks to the efforts of some progressive theologians, and open minded folks, "things- are-a-changing!" Praise "God"!! Warm regards, Roger

I've read this now half a dozen times, and it still plucks at me for some reason.

Christianity hasn't failed people. We've failed Christianity. We who profess to be Christian have failed our God. We failed to bring about the world he envisioned. We failed in every possible way. Perhaps Joseph's experiment started out right, but it quickly got caught up in our very human failings... things like not being able to see the forest for the trees (getting all caught up in the administration of the law and losing track of the spirit of the law), like placing more emphasis on outward appearances than on inner heart, like claiming to be the true church while behaving like every other church, like subjucating God's authority to man's whims. When much is given, as we claim, then much is expected... and instead of throwing the incredible weight of our faithful and our deep pockets behind that which is commanded of us by Christ himself (those 2 great commandments of which you spoke), we choose instead to buy shopping malls. The poor are not fed, the widowed are not comforted, the sick are not healed... because we're too busy buying shopping malls.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when once we decide it's more expedient to decieve than to open the books. (with apologies to whoever coined the original phrase)

[_rcrocket]

The poor are not fed, the widowed are not comforted, the sick are not healed... because we're too busy buying shopping malls.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when once we decide it's more expedient to decieve than to open the books. (with apologies to whoever coined the original phrase)

So which of the brethren are deceiving us, and how are we being deceived?

P